Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Links to pics of that tank?
Thanks..
Links to pics of that tank?
Thanks..
Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything
- Thread starter SantaMonica
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Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
What is a boundary layer, and why is it important? It the layer of water that is microscopically close to the algae; the water molecules that actually touch the algae:
This boundary layer area of the water has zero flow, because it has to have the same flow as the algae, which of course is zero. Since there is no flow (velocity) here, nutrient transport through it is slow. The faster the water flow, the smaller the boundary layer, and the faster the nutrients can get to/from the algae from the water.
One point to clarify about nutrient exchange: Contact with air is not needed. Scrubbers operate the same whether they are sealed or open (except for cooling/evap), because the exchange is not with the air; it's with the water. The reason algae grows better in an overflow, or where water hits a scrubber screen, or where waves hit the beach, is because the flow is higher here and thus the water's boundary layer is thinner, which allows for better nutrient transfer between the algae and the water. This is what a vertical waterfall scrubber tries to achieve: Fast flow from top to bottom. Further info can be found here:
Seagrasses: Biology, Ecology, and Conservation, p 199, by AWD Larkum, Robert Joseph Orth, Carlos M. Duarte:
"As water flows through seagrass [or algae] beds, a boundary layer develops on the sediment surface, as well as on each seagrass [and algae] component exposed to the moving water. The faster the water moves, the thinner the diffusive boundary layer (DBL) becomes, and consequently, the faster the transfer of molecules from the water column to the sediment and/or seagrass [or algae]. It follows then that when currents [flow] are weak, the flux of molecules to the seagrass [or algae] surface may be limited by diffusion through the [boundary layer] (i.e., physical limitation). Under those conditions, many biological sites or enzymes in the seagrass [or algae] tissue are available to assimilate molecules when/if [!] they reach the plant's [or algal] surface.
What is a boundary layer, and why is it important? It the layer of water that is microscopically close to the algae; the water molecules that actually touch the algae:
This boundary layer area of the water has zero flow, because it has to have the same flow as the algae, which of course is zero. Since there is no flow (velocity) here, nutrient transport through it is slow. The faster the water flow, the smaller the boundary layer, and the faster the nutrients can get to/from the algae from the water.
One point to clarify about nutrient exchange: Contact with air is not needed. Scrubbers operate the same whether they are sealed or open (except for cooling/evap), because the exchange is not with the air; it's with the water. The reason algae grows better in an overflow, or where water hits a scrubber screen, or where waves hit the beach, is because the flow is higher here and thus the water's boundary layer is thinner, which allows for better nutrient transfer between the algae and the water. This is what a vertical waterfall scrubber tries to achieve: Fast flow from top to bottom. Further info can be found here:
Seagrasses: Biology, Ecology, and Conservation, p 199, by AWD Larkum, Robert Joseph Orth, Carlos M. Duarte:
"As water flows through seagrass [or algae] beds, a boundary layer develops on the sediment surface, as well as on each seagrass [and algae] component exposed to the moving water. The faster the water moves, the thinner the diffusive boundary layer (DBL) becomes, and consequently, the faster the transfer of molecules from the water column to the sediment and/or seagrass [or algae]. It follows then that when currents [flow] are weak, the flux of molecules to the seagrass [or algae] surface may be limited by diffusion through the [boundary layer] (i.e., physical limitation). Under those conditions, many biological sites or enzymes in the seagrass [or algae] tissue are available to assimilate molecules when/if [!] they reach the plant's [or algal] surface.
waucedah_joe
Active Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Nice looking setup. I'm getting ready top make Rev. 2 for my tank and I'm wondering what type of hose you're using for the flexible parts, the black and gray? In rev. 1 of my setup I used some corrigated black plastic hose, (for a basement sump pump I think). Trouble is while it fits fairly tight, you cant really clamp a corrigated pipe and I've had one incident of spillage already so, I'm looking for alternative ideas.
Thanks,
Waucedah Joe
i just made one of these (last night 8/6/2009) completely to the original spec, but there is so much lose green hair algae in my system that its clogged my waterfall (GRR). My scrubber is connected directly to my overflow return. Will post pics later.
---edit---
k its later
Nice looking setup. I'm getting ready top make Rev. 2 for my tank and I'm wondering what type of hose you're using for the flexible parts, the black and gray? In rev. 1 of my setup I used some corrigated black plastic hose, (for a basement sump pump I think). Trouble is while it fits fairly tight, you cant really clamp a corrigated pipe and I've had one incident of spillage already so, I'm looking for alternative ideas.
Thanks,
Waucedah Joe
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Be sure to use plastic canvas, roughed up on both sides with a hole saw.
Be sure to use plastic canvas, roughed up on both sides with a hole saw.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Update: Results of new screen material?
It's been a while now, so let's hear some feedback on how the new screen material worked. I'm most interested in if it ripped when it got heavy with algae. Other people want to get the material too, but I need to make sure it works before I can recommend it.
Update: Results of new screen material?
It's been a while now, so let's hear some feedback on how the new screen material worked. I'm most interested in if it ripped when it got heavy with algae. Other people want to get the material too, but I need to make sure it works before I can recommend it.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
I can tell from the growth that you have high nitrate and phosphate. It's going to be thick oily growth, so clean often until it start turning green.
I can tell from the growth that you have high nitrate and phosphate. It's going to be thick oily growth, so clean often until it start turning green.
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
You have thick nuisance algae in the tank?
You have thick nuisance algae in the tank?
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Several Updates:
1. Change CFL or T5 bulbs every THREE MONTHS!
2. Wattage recommendation: 0.5 Watts per gallon for medium filtering. 1.0 for high filtering.
3. CFL bulbs: 55W is the max that works good. If you need more watts, get two or three smaller ones, or go to T5HO (best)
4. Skimmer overflow: Be careful of your skimmer overflowing (if it does not have an overflow tube.) The rotting food in the skimmer cups has been growing bacteria, and thus producing ammonia, so if it overflows into your sump, the ammonia can kill things. If this happens, then a scrubber removes this ammonia from the water (skimmers do not remove ammonia; they only make ammonia in the cup.)
5. Current best place to get plastic canvas: Plastic Canvas Supplies - Find it all at Everything Plastic Canvas!
6. Surges are not recommended for scrubbers, because (1) the have not shown to improve operations, (2) they are hard to diy, (2) they are noisy/messy, and (4) they reduce the filtering contact time with the water.
7. Cleaning: If your screen goes up into the pipe, you can clean the screen extra good in that area, so that less algae will grow up into the pipe.
8. Purple growth: If your screen is new, and you are getting thin purple growth in spots, it is probably cyano because of weak lighting. If your screen is 3 months old or more, and you start getting purple growth, feel it. If it's is furry, then it's turf. If it's not furry, then it cyano.
9. Never run the lighting 24/7.
10. Cyano in display: Sometimes, after an algae scrubber has removed most of the nuisance algae in a tank, cyano will grow a bit more. This is normal, because cyano does not eat the same thing that nuisance algae does (thus, the cyano now has less competition). But the cyano will reduce too eventually. The cyano occurs because it has the capability of getting nitrogen directly from the water, without needing Nitrate, Nitrate or Ammonia/Ammonium (which is what algae gets nitrogen from). But as the scrubber continues to filter, the cyano will have a harder and harder time holding on.
11. Why "polished" water is bad: The "clean" water look you get with a skimmer and other mechanical filters is because the food (i.e, waste "protein") has been removed from the water. This is what you want if you have just large fish. But if you want a "real" natural reef, you don't want to do this. Go diving some time and look at the water on a natural reef; there are millions of specks and dots and particles and things floating in the water in a super thick soup. And that's just six inches in front of your face. These things are what feed everything, including small fish.
Several Updates:
1. Change CFL or T5 bulbs every THREE MONTHS!
2. Wattage recommendation: 0.5 Watts per gallon for medium filtering. 1.0 for high filtering.
3. CFL bulbs: 55W is the max that works good. If you need more watts, get two or three smaller ones, or go to T5HO (best)
4. Skimmer overflow: Be careful of your skimmer overflowing (if it does not have an overflow tube.) The rotting food in the skimmer cups has been growing bacteria, and thus producing ammonia, so if it overflows into your sump, the ammonia can kill things. If this happens, then a scrubber removes this ammonia from the water (skimmers do not remove ammonia; they only make ammonia in the cup.)
5. Current best place to get plastic canvas: Plastic Canvas Supplies - Find it all at Everything Plastic Canvas!
6. Surges are not recommended for scrubbers, because (1) the have not shown to improve operations, (2) they are hard to diy, (2) they are noisy/messy, and (4) they reduce the filtering contact time with the water.
7. Cleaning: If your screen goes up into the pipe, you can clean the screen extra good in that area, so that less algae will grow up into the pipe.
8. Purple growth: If your screen is new, and you are getting thin purple growth in spots, it is probably cyano because of weak lighting. If your screen is 3 months old or more, and you start getting purple growth, feel it. If it's is furry, then it's turf. If it's not furry, then it cyano.
9. Never run the lighting 24/7.
10. Cyano in display: Sometimes, after an algae scrubber has removed most of the nuisance algae in a tank, cyano will grow a bit more. This is normal, because cyano does not eat the same thing that nuisance algae does (thus, the cyano now has less competition). But the cyano will reduce too eventually. The cyano occurs because it has the capability of getting nitrogen directly from the water, without needing Nitrate, Nitrate or Ammonia/Ammonium (which is what algae gets nitrogen from). But as the scrubber continues to filter, the cyano will have a harder and harder time holding on.
11. Why "polished" water is bad: The "clean" water look you get with a skimmer and other mechanical filters is because the food (i.e, waste "protein") has been removed from the water. This is what you want if you have just large fish. But if you want a "real" natural reef, you don't want to do this. Go diving some time and look at the water on a natural reef; there are millions of specks and dots and particles and things floating in the water in a super thick soup. And that's just six inches in front of your face. These things are what feed everything, including small fish.
Rhodes19
Active Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Silly question but, is that 55w used electricity or 55w equivalent electricity. Thanks
Silly question but, is that 55w used electricity or 55w equivalent electricity. Thanks
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
It's always "used".
It's always "used".
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Dear SANTAMONICA
well as i am one of the lucky people who own ATS , now i think its time to upgrade my screen material and i am thinking between your screen flex and the canava sheets please tell me which is better and where i can buy the screen flex online to be shipped international ?
Best regards from EGYPT
Dear SANTAMONICA
well as i am one of the lucky people who own ATS , now i think its time to upgrade my screen material and i am thinking between your screen flex and the canava sheets please tell me which is better and where i can buy the screen flex online to be shipped international ?
Best regards from EGYPT
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Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Well the flex did not test well... it was ripping. So I'm going to start making double-layer cactus-finish canvas screens, and start offering them here on RS. I'm going to make one in the next day or so and see how long it takes, and then price it from there. The work involved is all in the roughing-up... the surface must feel like a cactus in order to hold the algae in strong flow (that's how you get high filtering.)
Well the flex did not test well... it was ripping. So I'm going to start making double-layer cactus-finish canvas screens, and start offering them here on RS. I'm going to make one in the next day or so and see how long it takes, and then price it from there. The work involved is all in the roughing-up... the surface must feel like a cactus in order to hold the algae in strong flow (that's how you get high filtering.)
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Success Updates:
Jason1 on the RS site: "I have to tell you, this thing works great. My tank is definitely showing signs of improvement and looks really cleaned up from what it used to. Thank you."
Danno.Thomas on the SWF site: "Have mine up and functional on a 30 gal, that was just changed over from a 20 gal, had zero new algae growth in the DT. Scrubber is working like magic. Small feather dusters abundant. 6 years in the hobby and my tank has never looked more alive. This is my exclusive filtration."
Troythegreat on the 3R site: "i personally think that scrubbers are a Godsend to reefers. IMO scrubbers work much better than skimmers at 1/10th the cost, all you need is a little discipline. I've had my scrubber running on my 75gal for about 7 months without any trace of nitrates or phosphates. I have 2 clowns, 4 damsels and a engineer goby plus many coral. i feed my coral once a day and my fish twice a day.........i clean the scrubber every 5 days and change carbon once a month."
Chadjwil on the scrubber site: "I've been running an algae scrubber on my 55 [for 7 months]. That tank has never had a skimmer or canister or any other filtration in it, ATS since birth! I'm totally loving it, and...due to space restrictions in the stand ... my screen is undersized, and until last week it was under-lit (bare minimum now), and it's still keeping that tank clean and nutrient free. My fish are so healthy looking, more so than all but the best of the LFS within 50 miles, and my shrimpies molt like mad. I used to be a little leary about telling people that I ran an ATS because of all the sideways looks and comments that I got (and I'm sure my wife thought I was crazy too), but over the last few months more and more people have been commenting on how nice our tank looks, and that theirs was full of algae and a pain to clean all the time, we must spend all our time cleaning and screwing with it...now I get a lot of satisfaction telling them that I spend 5 minutes scraping algae off a plastic tank divider every week or so and I'm done. True believer here."
Success Updates:
Jason1 on the RS site: "I have to tell you, this thing works great. My tank is definitely showing signs of improvement and looks really cleaned up from what it used to. Thank you."
Danno.Thomas on the SWF site: "Have mine up and functional on a 30 gal, that was just changed over from a 20 gal, had zero new algae growth in the DT. Scrubber is working like magic. Small feather dusters abundant. 6 years in the hobby and my tank has never looked more alive. This is my exclusive filtration."
Troythegreat on the 3R site: "i personally think that scrubbers are a Godsend to reefers. IMO scrubbers work much better than skimmers at 1/10th the cost, all you need is a little discipline. I've had my scrubber running on my 75gal for about 7 months without any trace of nitrates or phosphates. I have 2 clowns, 4 damsels and a engineer goby plus many coral. i feed my coral once a day and my fish twice a day.........i clean the scrubber every 5 days and change carbon once a month."
Chadjwil on the scrubber site: "I've been running an algae scrubber on my 55 [for 7 months]. That tank has never had a skimmer or canister or any other filtration in it, ATS since birth! I'm totally loving it, and...due to space restrictions in the stand ... my screen is undersized, and until last week it was under-lit (bare minimum now), and it's still keeping that tank clean and nutrient free. My fish are so healthy looking, more so than all but the best of the LFS within 50 miles, and my shrimpies molt like mad. I used to be a little leary about telling people that I ran an ATS because of all the sideways looks and comments that I got (and I'm sure my wife thought I was crazy too), but over the last few months more and more people have been commenting on how nice our tank looks, and that theirs was full of algae and a pain to clean all the time, we must spend all our time cleaning and screwing with it...now I get a lot of satisfaction telling them that I spend 5 minutes scraping algae off a plastic tank divider every week or so and I'm done. True believer here."
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Update: Deep-Sump Nano's
There are two types of nano's: The one that has a hatch on the top, so you don't have to open the whole lid to get to the filters, and the one without a hatch, where you do have to open the lid. It's this second one (with a deep "sump"), that is the most difficult to put a scrubber into. Indeed, if at all possible, you want to instead make an external scrubber, that sits above the tank:
You can enclose the scrubber with a box, or just use the lid of the bucket, to keep the light in. And actually, since nano's need such small screens, you could just use a coffee can, with the lid, which will block out all light once sealed. Decorate the can like a vase, and it will add to your decor. And use black tubing too so it looks nice. It doesn't need air flow, unless you want evaporation and cooling. Regardless, if you do this design, make sure to use "aquarium-safe" silicon on all electrical connection inside the bucket (including where the bulb screws in), because water and salt will build and short it out.
If, however, there is no possible way to put a scrubber above your nano, then you can install one in the "sump" area if you are good at DIY. It's a tight fit, but it can be done:
Riaanp on the MASA site did this:
And Nitschke65 on the SWF site did this:
The idea is to use one of the compartments (probably the middle one) for a waterfall area. For lighting, although Riaanp put the light inside, it's probably best to put the light on the outside (back) of the tank, and scrub off the paint on the backside so that the light can get through to the scrubber screen. The bulb only needs to be one watt for every gallon, so a 13 or 18 watts CFL 3000K is fine.
Fortunately you don't need much screen size for a nano... just 2 square inches (6.25 square cm) for every U.S. gallon (3.8 liters), because the screen is one-sided.
This type of setup is nice because it does not require any cutting of the sump walls, and thus can be converted back easily. Also, there is no real cost... just the screen (2 layers of roughed-up plastic canvas, about $1 USD), and the bulb and socket, probably $7.
Update: Deep-Sump Nano's
There are two types of nano's: The one that has a hatch on the top, so you don't have to open the whole lid to get to the filters, and the one without a hatch, where you do have to open the lid. It's this second one (with a deep "sump"), that is the most difficult to put a scrubber into. Indeed, if at all possible, you want to instead make an external scrubber, that sits above the tank:
You can enclose the scrubber with a box, or just use the lid of the bucket, to keep the light in. And actually, since nano's need such small screens, you could just use a coffee can, with the lid, which will block out all light once sealed. Decorate the can like a vase, and it will add to your decor. And use black tubing too so it looks nice. It doesn't need air flow, unless you want evaporation and cooling. Regardless, if you do this design, make sure to use "aquarium-safe" silicon on all electrical connection inside the bucket (including where the bulb screws in), because water and salt will build and short it out.
If, however, there is no possible way to put a scrubber above your nano, then you can install one in the "sump" area if you are good at DIY. It's a tight fit, but it can be done:
Riaanp on the MASA site did this:
And Nitschke65 on the SWF site did this:
The idea is to use one of the compartments (probably the middle one) for a waterfall area. For lighting, although Riaanp put the light inside, it's probably best to put the light on the outside (back) of the tank, and scrub off the paint on the backside so that the light can get through to the scrubber screen. The bulb only needs to be one watt for every gallon, so a 13 or 18 watts CFL 3000K is fine.
Fortunately you don't need much screen size for a nano... just 2 square inches (6.25 square cm) for every U.S. gallon (3.8 liters), because the screen is one-sided.
This type of setup is nice because it does not require any cutting of the sump walls, and thus can be converted back easily. Also, there is no real cost... just the screen (2 layers of roughed-up plastic canvas, about $1 USD), and the bulb and socket, probably $7.
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
OK, I've been running the ATS for about 3 months now. Nitrates and Phosphates at 0. Zero algae in the DT. I'm loving this thing. My friends can't believe that I have no algae. The only problem is cloudy water. I've tried activated carbon in a HOT Magnum, the micron filter in the Magnum, Chemi-pure in a power filter. Even the Kent water clarifier in the bottle. Nothing is working.
Any advice?
OK, I've been running the ATS for about 3 months now. Nitrates and Phosphates at 0. Zero algae in the DT. I'm loving this thing. My friends can't believe that I have no algae. The only problem is cloudy water. I've tried activated carbon in a HOT Magnum, the micron filter in the Magnum, Chemi-pure in a power filter. Even the Kent water clarifier in the bottle. Nothing is working.
Any advice?
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
Cloudy water is from not cleaning often enough. The bottom algae layers are dying and going back into the water. Clean every seven day, for one month, and report back on the water.
Otherwise, glad to hear of the success!
Cloudy water is from not cleaning often enough. The bottom algae layers are dying and going back into the water. Clean every seven day, for one month, and report back on the water.
Otherwise, glad to hear of the success!
Tuscaquatics
Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin
I've been cleaning it at most every seven days, sometimes less, depending on whether or not it's spraying all over. Another issue is the algae that is growing all over the sump. For the most part I've been leaving it alone for fear of getting it blown all over the tank. When I find really big chunks I usually pull them out with my hand. Could this excess algae be contributing to the cloudiness? Is there anything I can do to curtail its growth?
I've been cleaning it at most every seven days, sometimes less, depending on whether or not it's spraying all over. Another issue is the algae that is growing all over the sump. For the most part I've been leaving it alone for fear of getting it blown all over the tank. When I find really big chunks I usually pull them out with my hand. Could this excess algae be contributing to the cloudiness? Is there anything I can do to curtail its growth?