I went to an Eric Borneman presentation yesterday.

funkpolice

Active Member
I went to see Eric Borneman talk yesterday at a cmas event. It was very cool. The presentation was titled setting up the ideal reef aquarium. He talked a lot about different ways reef tanks have been set up over time. Some things I thought to be very interesting were his ideas on water changes, protein skimming, and feeding the tank. I also have some new ideas for my dream tank I'll be starting on in the near future. A surge based tank, with reef wall, crest, and back areas. If anyone has an opportunity to go see this presentation they should, it made for a fun afternoon.
bill
 

Dentoid

Smile Maker
PREMIUM
I have seen Eric speak, he is a wealth of information. How about telling us more about his thoughts on WCs, skimming and feeding.
 

BigJay

Well-Known Member
A surge based tank, with reef wall, crest, and back areas.
bill

Could you elaborate on that? Is it basically a tide pool/lagoon area? Wave crests up over a wall lands in lagoonal area and slowly trickles back down through the substrate into the main tank?
 

funkpolice

Active Member
scott, he basically said that you don't need to do water changes unless your water quality calls for it. He was involved in some extensive aquarium salt testing and said that even the "best" salts are very impure. Every water change increases the concentration of these impurities in the system. He showed pics of tanks that hadn't had water changes in years. Nutrient removal can be achieved with the use of ATS systems. He also talked about skimmers making it impossible to have levels of live food in the water column even close to what corals need. His thought is skimmers should only be used in emergency situations or in quarantine/hospital tanks. He talked about using a slow acclimation process you can build up the bacteria levels in a tank high enough to compensate for extremely high feeding volumes. There was a ton of info that made sense, but I would be hesitant to practice it. Things like introducing fish that feed on sps into sps tanks. He observed that this would cause the coral to withdrawal their polyps in the day, like they do in the wild, thus allowing more light to be absorbed by the coral, resulting in better growth and color. The summary was that there is no "ideal" reef set up, and that there are many ways to achieve success. I took some notes, but I haven't reviewed them yet, it was a lot to take in in 2.5 hrs.


Jay, I'll make a sketch later tonight and show you what I'm talking about. I'm super excited about it, my wife says I'm crazy.


bill
 

blue_eyes53813

Well-Known Member
I would love to see Eric and listen to his presentations.. Interesting concept on the skimmer. Maybe we are all doing this hobby wrong?? Just kidding... Keep the information coming Bill. I have no idea what you mean by Surge tank... ??
 

BigJay

Well-Known Member
Maybe we are all doing this hobby wrong?? Just kidding...

every year theres a new stragedy to prove the old one was wrong. Sometimes coming full circle.
As far as water changes if your able to provide all the nutrients in proper ratios without large dips and increases and your nutrient level is at 0 then it would make sense you wouldn't need to change water. That would mean a lot of testing and dosing , I think.
 

funkpolice

Active Member
I don't think most of his ideas at this presentation where aimed at the beginning aquarist. I would think to do thing the way he suggested would really take a lot of experience and knowledge. He went out of his way to say that nothing is right or wrong, but not to accept the way things are done by the majority as the law. He feels we've gotten to the point where we can keep really nice tanks, but they are very unnatural.

Anyways, here's a crappy sketch of my ideal tank. It's still in the roughest dream/plan stage, but I'm really excited about it.

img012.jpg


blueeyes, the surge tank fills slowly, then releases all of it's water into the tank very quickly. I think that this tank design would make a really intense wave that would crash and roll over the peak. I would do an in wall setup with the display and lagoon tanks being the viewable portion of the system. What do you guys think?


bill
 

funkpolice

Active Member
I'm thinking a huge algae turf scrubber, a nice skimmer, rubbermaid bins for the sump and fuge. I haven't even thought of lighting yet, but maybe a halide over the deep end, and t5s on the rest. I'd like to do a shallow look down frag tank as well. I want to build the display myself.
bill
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Bill our LFS has a SWEET "Surge" tank but it's not all that "eye pleasing". It works GREAT and looks really cool if you appreciate the SURGE itself but for an all our reef tank it keeps the water so "turmoiled" that it's hard to view and appreciate the inhabitants.
 

funkpolice

Active Member
I think I would totally appreciate the turmoil. Maybe if I could find a way to keep the bubbles in the deep area pr maybe if it only surged every couple hours. I'm really starting to think of my tank as a garden kind of, it just doesn't look like a reef. too tidy.
bill
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
scott, he basically said that you don't need to do water changes unless your water quality calls for it. He was involved in some extensive aquarium salt testing and said that even the "best" salts are very impure. Every water change increases the concentration of these impurities in the system. He showed pics of tanks that hadn't had water changes in years. Nutrient removal can be achieved with the use of ATS systems. He also talked about skimmers making it impossible to have levels of live food in the water column even close to what corals need. His thought is skimmers should only be used in emergency situations or in quarantine/hospital tanks. He talked about using a slow acclimation process you can build up the bacteria levels in a tank high enough to compensate for extremely high feeding volumes. There was a ton of info that made sense, but I would be hesitant to practice it. Things like introducing fish that feed on sps into sps tanks. He observed that this would cause the coral to withdrawal their polyps in the day, like they do in the wild, thus allowing more light to be absorbed by the coral, resulting in better growth and color. The summary was that there is no "ideal" reef set up, and that there are many ways to achieve success. I took some notes, but I haven't reviewed them yet, it was a lot to take in in 2.5 hrs.


Jay, I'll make a sketch later tonight and show you what I'm talking about. I'm super excited about it, my wife says I'm crazy.


bill

You need to keep in mind that Eric Bornerman is somewhat controversial. In addition, he's not really doing his job if he just says "keep doing what you've been doing, you'll get great results".

Personally, I disagree whit him about water changes and not using a skimmer. Yes, I have tried a system using algae turf scrubbing and no skimming. I found the typical berlin system (filter sock, large powerful skimming, and live rock in the tank) plus refugium works a whole lot better.

As for doing or not doing water changes, I can recall that many years ago the FW hobby in a long phase where they considered "old water" to be the very best for spawning raising FW fish in. This was later found to be completely wrong, and nowadays small frequent partial water changes are recommended, and even the use of RO/DI water is often used for difficult fish such as discus.

The system being advocated by Bornerman seems to be almost identical to the systems built by Dr. Walter Adey, and described in his book Dynamic Aquaria, co authored by Karen Loveland. The sketch you have shove us is almost identical to the system Addy designed for the Smithsonian's Natural History Museum. This system was set up in 1980 and was torn down quite a few years ago. By the standards of the time if was state of the art. By today's standards, the system had a lot of great ideas, but also some limitations. I would consider it a bit dated by today's standards.

I do recommend the above book, for additional information, if anyone is going to construct such a system. It's got a lot of interesting ideas in it, but I would also include ideas from more modern systems.

In any case, I do hope this gets people thinking about how we can do things better.

As a sidebar, the system in the Smithsonian had an algae problem, so to help control it, they introduced a yellow tang. The only problem was that the system was supposed to be an Atlantic reef. The fish was too difficult to remove and for years, you could visit the display, and see the yellow tang swimming around with all the other Atlantic reef fish.
 

BigJay

Well-Known Member
I would think a plunger box could be substituted for that huge surge tank. It would be much more effecient and take far less room. All you need is a box with a very wide plunger that raises itself slowly sucking water in the bottom or through a slot then it pushes down very rapidly. That would make it mostly a one way surge. Fairly simple in design and I would imagine building it out of acrylic would be fairly simple. Timing the upstroke and down stroke of the plunger would be the most difficult part. Could be done with circuitry or with gearing. A geared system would probably be the safest but a hydraulic system would be the cats meow.

should mention the box sits inside the tank itself.
 

funkpolice

Active Member
I know borneman is controversial, that kind of why I didn't want to get into specifics, but others asked for them. this system was talked about by borneman, but he did give credit to addey and reference the smithsonian and it's problems. It just happened to be the first time I had heard of it. I don't think I would get rid of my skimmer, but I think I'll try skimming a little less. I also won't stop the water changes. I really think a periodic massive surge of water through a tank is a really cool idea. I'm going to amazon to look for that book. Thanks for the suggestion.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Bill the "Surge" is really neat and looks cool for "That" look. The one at the LFS is a fill/dump system in that it can be controlled time-wise merely adding a timer to the pump. Right now it's currently OFF because it's not the best way to display SHOW coral and fish. It's really cool to watch the "wave" surge across the water but all the mess it creates takes WAY too long to clear up for a "Reef" tank. I think it's a good idea if that's the LOOK you're after.

As for me I'm a "ypical berlin system (filter sock, large powerful skimming, and live rock in the tank) plus refugium kind of guy.

I do enjoy other ideas and perspectives but this works best for "Al's needs and likes" :D
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
I know borneman is controversial, that kind of why I didn't want to get into specifics, but others asked for them. this system was talked about by borneman, but he did give credit to addey and reference the smithsonian and it's problems. It just happened to be the first time I had heard of it. I don't think I would get rid of my skimmer, but I think I'll try skimming a little less. I also won't stop the water changes. I really think a periodic massive surge of water through a tank is a really cool idea. I'm going to amazon to look for that book. Thanks for the suggestion.

Before you buy the book from Amazon, try your local library first. They may be able to get it for you. It's a rather expensive book to get if your just looking for ideas.

The idea of large surges is a big benefit. However, in systems the size most of us have, it may be better to use pumps designed for flow, such as Tunze streams or Vortech pumps.
 

blue_eyes53813

Well-Known Member
Those surge tanks on youtube are pretty cool. It would really help in eliminating the extra power heads I have in my tank. You would think with a big system like mine to would be pretty noisy .?? I like the flow that it creates.. Pretty neat idea..
 

BigJay

Well-Known Member
The only issue I am having with the surge device is my sump level. The constant level area of my return would run dry if more then 2-3 gallons of water would be removed. The constant level area of my sump with my skimmer would raise to high causing my skimmer to flood out with 1-2 extra gallons. If I set this up its going to have to fit in that narrow window. I also realized its going to rain havoc on my ATO. The more I think about it the more I don't want to attempt it.
 
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