Hybrid paludarium

[StirCrayzy]

OK so this is a project plan for after Jan 1 2010. i wont do much til then except research, and gather materials.

I am starting out with the following:
65g (48x18x18) cichlid tank,
and a 2g (16x16x8 deep) Turtle Tank
5g crab tank (supposed to be FW QT, but crab kept escaping the 65)
water movement = plenty of PHs, undergravel filter, whisper 300HOB, Magnum 350,
Lighting =
2 pcs 20w 24" Full Spectrum Spectra Rays 5000K 875 Lumens
2 pcs 20w 24" Color enhacing Aqua Rays 9325K 950 Lumens
1 75w 5 UVB basking bulb


My vision is to have a planted tank, Plants both above and below surface, with some type of fish, current turtle, and my soapdish crab. I will be making the Dry areas using acrylic boxes made to size. Ideally i will have 10" of water depth, and i cant have anything by the glass closer than 6" from the top or the crab will escape.
The wildcard will be incorporating my current 2g turtle tank into this paludarium. That can be accomplished by two methods that i can think of so far. Depending on the mounting position of the turtle tank, i can either confine him to the tank he's in, and just share water filtration with the main tank. Or, i can mount the turtle tank lower in the water so he can go in and out of his current enclosure. The determining factor for the turtles destiny will be the type of fish i decide to stock.

I will be trading in my current stock of cichlids to fund new fish. I may keep 1 of my 8 inch Plecos for cleanup. However i may use cory cats if i get docile fish.
I am very much open for suggestions/ advice/ ideas, or comments.
I will be researching plant/animal compatibility to see if what i want to accomplish, is even possible.:fingerx: :fingerx:
I picked up River Rock this week, from a friends demolished pond, to use for the waterfall if it gets made
I've never done anything planted, and know i must plan on some type of CO2 system. Low budget DIY stuff is my hope, i can stock plants to suit that .
I will post a pic of rocks and my first revision remedial design concept shortly. I cant figure out where i installed my autocad prog, so i had to use paint.

 

[StirCrayzy]

I will eliminate the upper 5g and move the crab itself, and the entire turtle enclosure into the lower 65g. Below you 'll see the turtle tank i want inside the 65.

Current 65

 

[PEMfish]

A river tank, nice.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Here is a shot of the box o' rox i hope to have enough to accomplish the waterfall, and maybe a couple other structures. I will be using epoxy to hold em together.

As i was gathering these i didnt think about capacity, but i suppose when i tried to lift it the first time, i realized i should really look into stress and weight capacity of this tank. :fingerx:

If anyone knows for sure, please let me know what weight a 48" L tank can hold. I am planning my waterfall for the center of the tank, but would just as easily relocate to assure strength of the bottom glass.:fingerx: :fingerx:
I would guess i have maybe 100 lbs of river rock to place, more than half in the center rear for the falls. Add to that, 50 lbs substrate spread across the bottom evenly, and a few large rocks 10 lbs each scattered evenly.

As for plants, I am very fascinated by bamboo, and need to find a place for it in this setup. Other plants i have no preference yet, except i think large leaves would be a plus to ease cleanup.

 

[Bounce]

Just a few thoughts...

What kind of turtle is he, and what size is he at now? An aquatic turtle (and possibly the crab to a lesser extent) is likely going to do his own abstract version of feng shui on your live plants. Also, turtles need both full spectrum "reptile" lights for proper calcium and D3 absorption as well as a basking light. The basking light in particular is going to contribute to undesirable algae growth unless you use a ceramic heat emitter--either may overheat the water beyond comfortable levels for your fish. Adequately fed turtles create a lot of waste that would require heavy filtration to keep nitrogenous waste in check in the tank; the plants may not be able to remove sufficient amounts of nitrate without requiring frequent water changes. Finally, a turtle is most likely going to eat any fish it can catch. While a Reeve's turtle might not outgrow a 48" tank, most sliders and cooters will. I don't want to sound like the bearer of bad news, but I really don't see a turtle in this type of setup working out too well in even the short term.

If you'd like to mix reptiles into such a planted tank, you might want to consider anole sp. or possibly a brown basilisk. There are also a number of amphibians that could do well in such a tank--provided it doesn't get too hot.

One of my all-time favorite tanks I had was a 48x24x24 120 gallon that was about 2/5 full of water. There was over 200lbs of various rocks and at least 300lbs of gravel in the tank. I had a few submerged plants (hardy ones that didn't require the addition of CO2) and marginal plants as well. The plants grew so well that I had to routinely prune/replace them. Inhabitants included a little herd of anoles, a few firebelly toads, archerfish and butterfly fish. All of them ate crickets. It was amazing to watch for hours and hours... The tank received no direct sunlight and the only lights I had on it were six 48" T12 fluorescents over glass. Filtration consisted of a complete under-gravel system that was powered by large canister filters that fed back into a "river" of sorts. I didn't have anything epoxied in.

If you're worried about the weight of rock being too much for the tank bottom you could consider using plastic boards (like a cutting board or something similar) to disperse the weight over a larger area.

Anyway, I hope you keep us updated with what you're planning and definitely take some pictures along the way!

 

[PEMfish]

Wouldn't be worried about the weight. The weight of water and LR in a reef way out weight what your going to do.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Wouldn't be worried about the weight. The weight of water and LR in a reef way out weight what your going to do.

I only worried because River rock is so much denser.
i think im going to try and spread it out as much as possible and build upward towards the falls.

So here are a few shots of my 3" long ,5 y/o turtle "Racer" he's got growth issues, grown 1 " since we've had him.
LFS said they dated him at 6 months old when i got him, so i go with that.
maybe the tumor on his head the vet says, may stunt his growth.:nopity:
Cant remember his actual species any help is welcome !
I had originally planned building this paludarium when he outgrew his current home, but that never happened. so here i go anyway.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Bounce... Thanks for the thoughts..
I am going to incorporate my current basking/ UV bulb into the new tank, it will be located over dry land, so algae is not going to be an issue with that.

Im mostly doing this to combine my current 3 tank outfit into one, should i lose any inhabitants, i will consider replacing with anoles for sure, i love to watch them. So far the only obvious problems will be between current cichlids and the turtle.
I am used to giving cichlids away, i have a good deal at my LFS, I take new fish in exchange for raising them to adult then trading in about every year or so, depending on how attached i get to the adults.
So my greatest challenge is to find fish with the right temperment to fare well against the crab and turtle, and yet not try to eat them .

When i get time to draw this up, i think you'll understand the option of keeping the turtle separated from the fish.
The crab and cichlids get along great, so its the turtle thats the wild card.

 

[PEMfish]

Your not going to fill thew tank with water to the top so your less that weight. You dont need to be so paranoid.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Your not going to fill thew tank with water to the top so your less that weight. You dont need to be so paranoid.

ya I think im over the paranoia, as thinkin about 180 lbs less water i actually cosidered getting another 50lbs worth of these river rocks

 

[PEMfish]

There ya go man alright.

 

[StirCrayzy]

tryin out Google sketch-up to layout actual dimensions.
i just figured out how to export 2D.
The waterfall will be under the whisper, and the river will be pushed by the magnum 350. the planter box will either be watered by holes in the box with tank water. Or I may wrap it around and behind the falls, and let the river water it, then overflow from the planter into the tank. maybe a small basking area and pool to be added in the planter. The 2 upright blue cylinders will be powerhead driven undergravel filter tubes. hopefully these 3 filter methods will be enough to control the turtle waste.
As i started mapping out locations for the turtle tank, i realized that its just too big for relocation inside of the 65.
This is acceptable, as ive been encouraged (after seeing many videos) to try the turtle in with my current cichlids. here are a couple good ones.
YouTube - My 135 gal tank w/ turtles and cichlids
YouTube - Ideal Turtle Tank Setup

Now i know what the hazards are with such a trial, and i am not leaving the room while this happens. Since i know the mannerisms of all my animals, i should be able to prevent a disaster by careful observation.
The turtle is goin for a swim tomorrow, i will get some video. i need to know how my fish will react to such an invader.
I have high hopes since neither the cichlids or turtles rarely eat meat, maybe they wont see each other as food.
During this test, the turtle will not have any land for retreat, so i will only let him swim for a couple minutes.
If all goes well, i will do this a couple times tomorrow, and maybe a few times a week to follow to get them used to each other.
i am designing the setup to function with all tank mates sharing everything, so if my current cichlids try to eat the turtle, they will get traded for smaller, and i will try to slowly introduce the animals to each other.
Stay tuned...
The turtle vs. soapdish experiment will follow soon.

 

[PEMfish]

You'll be fine.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Paul, thanks for taggin along !
Ive been trying to read through yer planted thread, but i keep getting sidetracked by sweet pic links scattered throughout.
And since im such a poorly focused reader, i have been running full throttle down all the bunny trails and im only on pg 14.


Which leads me to my second form of life. Plants !
Ive been looking at tons of pics to find what looks good but i think the deciding factor will be the setup itself.
1st. I cant afford a high $$ CO2 system
DIY will have to do if necessary. ( i have some fun resources available
2nd. turtle, cichlid, and crab compatible

Some will be below surface, and some can go above

For sure on my list is bamboo Dracaena spp or Spathyfyllum spp which should get CO2 from above surface leaves, if ive read correctly.

im trying to organize my findings based on
wants,
vs compatibility.

this is a post to release what is clogging my brain this morning.

After Reef WC gonna feed cichlids heavy, so they arent hungry for the turtle.

 

[PEMfish]

Local pond stores are probably the best source of plants that will grow up out of the water.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Around here, 3 outta the 5 closest LFS are all around plant/pond/fish/garden suppliers. Im gonna have lots of options. and odds are if they dont have what i want, they'll find it.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Just a short update, Turtle surviveda few minutes at a time.
He was panicking i think because of the depth, so i had to retrieve him to catch his breath.
Also kept getting stuck behind the undergravel tubes.

Heres a short video. next time will be maybe during a WC so he can catch his breath easier. Cichlids showed little interest.
My 3.5 yo son was very worried for the turtle during this little adventure
<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i53.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/stircrayzy/Critters/MVI_2644.flv">

 

[yungreefer2410]

does he have anyway to climb out of the water and sun?

 

[StirCrayzy]

does he have anyway to climb out of the water and sun?

Not in this tank yet, he still lives in his own 2g tank, but im slowly letting the cichlids get used to him. so im letting him swim in the 65g a couple times a week for a few minutes at a time.

I did a 20g WC last week, and he could climb the driftwood to get air, so he had maybe 10 minutes of tank exposure that time, I have phone video, but bad qual, so didnt post it.

 

[StirCrayzy]

wow, i sure didnt think i would postpone this for so loong, 3 Years ???
But since i did, there a few changes im thinking to implement.
It is becoming obvious that the 65g stand is getting too old to trust, is showing signs of wear and just looks like the 80's.
So after i persuaded my wife that i could downsize that tank to make room for her new couches, I made some changes.

The 65g is going away. i just dont have the space to justify keeping a 48" long tank in that room anyway.

in its place, the paludarium, will be my 40g tall in which i am currently replenishing a reef.

I need to build a new Reef Setup 1st (Stand / Lights), (75-90g)
Solid plans not made yet but my thought is 36L x 24w x 24H That is the area currently available where the 40 tall is.

The other possibility is build duplicate setups, and replace both current tanks with above dimension tanks.

The concept is still solidly glued into my cerebelum, but i guess my priorities have shifted towards other things.

Currently i have the turtle and some fish pals (roseys) living in a 10g. so far i have not had any slayings by the turtle.
This has encouraged me to pursue community fish that im sure the turtle wont bother. Plus ive had Cichlids for 20 yrs and i guess im kinda burnt out on the same old scenario. I dont even feed em live food every few months. That used to be the exciting part.

So thats the update for now, hopefully time will free up this year to make some headway.
The newest inccentive is getting a larger Reef out of the deal !!!