Blue Tang Head erosion

[Rhodes19]

Hi All,

I need some advice on taking care of my blue tang while in QT and confirmation on what I'm doing is correct or incorrect. At the moment she has head and lateral line erosion that started about a 7-10 days ago and as of last night it looks like her body has a whitish sheen to it. If she ever comes out of hiding long enough for me to take a picture, I'll get one posted. Every thing appeared to be going fine for the first 4-5 weeks. I check the water quality every other day, was doing over 50% water change every week (O ammonia, 0 nitrites, and below 12 on on nitrates[next color scale is 0]), salinity at 35 ppm by refractometer, temp 77 deg, and use RO/DI water with Instant Ocean salt. I was feeding every other day but am feeding daily now because nutrition may be an issue (read "Marine Head & Lateral Line Erosion: A Description of the Syndrome and a Review of its Speculated Causes" by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com (Leebeca recommendation). I was feeding flake, mysis shrimp, marine cuisine,and tried green algae on a clip and tried feeding cheato. She wouldn't eat the flake food or the green algae or cheato, but she likes the mysis shrimp and marine cuisine so thats what I feed her. She is about 2 1/2" long.


She came home with me on July 6, had a fresh water bath and then went into the QT. The QT is a 29g tank that has a sponge filter and a HOB filter with bio wheel and has pvc connectors on the bare bottom for hiding. The tank has been running since the end of January, beginning of February, was cycled, then used as a QT for some fish and I kept it going with flake and mysis shrimp in between fish QT. Frankie stopped by last night and took a look at her and said she looked like she was eating well (not skinny) and took some green algae, pressed it into a rock and placed it in the tank for her to eat. He also recommended that I reduce the lighting (was on 12 hours) and move the tank to a quieter place (its next to the hall entrance to our den/kitchen were we spend a good bit of time) so we don't spook her as much and reduce the stress on her.

Again, any advice or suggestions are greatly appreciated. If I left out any details, let me know. Thanks.

Chris

 

[Frankie]

Looks like you said it all Chris. Hopefully Leebca will chime in with some good sound advice.
Lee, I went and saw this fish last night. It is eating well from Chris' description and from the looks of the overall fish. This fish is about 2" long (hippo tang) has LLE and possibly velvet? I have not had this problem yet so it is hard for me to diagnose that. The light powdering over the body is more green/brown then white. No sign of MI at all. The Dorsal fin and anal fin seem a bit tattered. The pectoral fins look good. There is no other fish in the tank to blame for this and looks more like fin rot then anything. No clear or white on the edge though. Could be from another fish picking on it in the store.
This fish is way too young for capture imo and could be under extreme stress. I advised to move or cover the tank so less traffic around and about the tank.
The quarantine is setup well with PVC hiding places, heater and a sponge filter. There is a bio wheel filter that I recommended to be removed because of salt creep and over all ability to function properly. The sponge filter should be more then sufficient.
Thanks for your time. Fish diseases & treatment is not my strong point so I am asking others to chime in on this. Chris has a good head for medical applications BTW so your words won't be in vain

 

[DaveK]

..This fish is about 2" long (hippo tang) has LLE and possibly velvet? I have not had this problem yet so it is hard for me to diagnose that. The light powdering over the body is more green/brown then white. ...

Yes, that would be a classic description of velvet. That's why it's sometimes called gold dust disease. Treatment is by copper, but I sort of hate to recommend that, because it's obviously a very young fish and already under a lot of stress.

OTOH, the fish does seem to be getting worse, so this may be a case of what have you got to loose?

 

[bbe22]

Sad to hear about this Chris, hope it works out for the best.

 

[kdavies]

Hope your fish gets better soon. I hate to see any of the little guys get like that.

 

[Rhodes19]

Hi All,

Thank you for your comments and support, I appreciate it. I'll be moving the tank this weekend to a quieter place and hopefully that will help reduce some of the stress. Dave, I think your right about treating with copper. From all the reading I've been doing, reduced stress will help with the erosion but if she has velvet, then copper treatment is in order. I'm glad I'm I quarantine my new fish.

Here are some pictures of the tang. They aren't the best but you can see the erosion. I'm actually surprised that she came out and let me take pictures of her. She did play hard to get a little.

 

[Rhodes19]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I used Prazi to deworm her as well. I soaked mysis in it and then fed it to her. She did not like it at all. Reminded me of when we gave my oldest daughter a dill pickle for the first time.

 

[Rhodes19]

Added the first dose of Cupramine to the QT last night (thanks for the bottle Brian, I appreciate it). I'll add the second dose Saturday night (48 hrs) and then maintain the copper level for 2 weeks and see how she does. I'll also move the tank on Saturday as well and try to keep the stress down to a minimum.

 

[bbe22]

Don't even mention it Chris. I'm a miser, to me every penny counts. I'm glad I could save you a few bucks, but you've saved me a lot more than a few. For that, I thank you. Keep us posted on the recovery.

 

[Rhodes19]

Don't even mention it Chris. I'm a miser, to me every penny counts. I'm glad I could save you a few bucks, but you've saved me a lot more than a few. For that, I thank you. Keep us posted on the recovery.

Thanks Brian.

Well I got home last night and turned the lights on and she didn't come out right away and when I found her she was in one of the pvc connectors and wasn't moving. She was a bit pale and I thought she was dead but when I bumped the pvc, she swam out. Shes not looking to good but she is still alive. I fed her mysis and she didn't go after it right away like she normally does but she did eventually take a bit or 2. When I get home tonight I will add the rest of the Cupramine and see how she does. I think I will hold off on moving the tank until later when she is dong better. I just might cover the glass for now.

 

[leebca]

Chris,

Replying only to your first post (and not reading the replies and thread) I agree fish is suffering from a serious case of MHLLE.

I just replied to another post of the same concern. I'm just copying and pasting what I posted a moment ago:



In order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition; see this reference:
Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagallate
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?) [the article below disagrees with this one]

Most fish are 'cured' of this through improvement of nutrition. Feed lots of marine algae according to these recommendations: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...41782-how-feed-macro-alage-marine-fishes.html

Use both vitamin and fat supplements as recommended in the link given at the start of this post.

Stick to the best, top kinds of foods:
Different Marine Fish Food Forms

If the water quality is high and you eliminate most of the other concerns on the above list, then the diet shift will cure the fish.

:read:

 

[Rhodes19]

Chris,

Replying only to your first post (and not reading the replies and thread) I agree fish is suffering from a serious case of MHLLE.

I just replied to another post of the same concern. I'm just copying and pasting what I posted a moment ago:



In order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition; see this reference:
Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagallate
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?) [the article below disagrees with this one]

Most fish are 'cured' of this through improvement of nutrition. Feed lots of marine algae according to these recommendations: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...41782-how-feed-macro-alage-marine-fishes.html

Use both vitamin and fat supplements as recommended in the link given at the start of this post.

Stick to the best, top kinds of foods:
Different Marine Fish Food Forms

If the water quality is high and you eliminate most of the other concerns on the above list, then the diet shift will cure the fish.

:read:

Hi Lee,

Thank you for your feed back, I really appreciate it. I'll get some Vitamin supplements (A and C) and I'll pick up some other type of macro algae. I've tried feeding dried green sheet algae on a clip and on a rock and she wouldn't have anything to do with it. I tried cheato and she just ignored it. I'll see if a lfs has caulerpa or something else I can try. I'll also check for stray voltage, I haven't done that yet. Thanks again.

Chris

 

[leebca]

Don't give up on the macro algae. Make it available almost always. The fish is young and when so young they favor a pod diet and are omnivores. As the mature/get bigger they need/want almost nothing but macro algae.

The macro algae sheets you get from your LFS and the RS sponsors is what you want to use. Try different colors, other than green. Keep varying them.

Also, don't give up on varying the placement of the macro algae. Keep trying different areas. Also, note at night where the fish 'sleeps.' Put some near its 'bed.'

 

[Rhodes19]

Don't give up on the macro algae. Make it available almost always. The fish is young and when so young they favor a pod diet and are omnivores. As the mature/get bigger they need/want almost nothing but macro algae.

The macro algae sheets you get from your LFS and the RS sponsors is what you want to use. Try different colors, other than green. Keep varying them.

Also, don't give up on varying the placement of the macro algae. Keep trying different areas. Also, note at night where the fish 'sleeps.' Put some near its 'bed.'

Hi Lee,

Thanks again. That's great info. I was confused by some of the info I've found on line and have been reading on about what blue tangs want/need. Some said meaty foods and others said algae. A changing diet as they grow makes sense. I'll pick up some different macros on the way home to night and I'll place some by her sleeping area. Thanks again Lee, I really appreciate your help and your knowledge.

Chris

 

[leebca]

You're welcome, Chris!

:bluenod:

 

[Rhodes19]

Well, its 6 weeks post Cupramine treatment and I moved the blue tang into the DT. You can still see where the MHLLE was but it looks like the color is coming back a little. She's been eating green and purple algae, mysis shrimp (soaked in liquid vitamins) and some flake food (once in a while), and some marine cuisine. Now that she has some more swimming room I'm sure she will put it to good use.

 

[JandR]

Rhodes, I have just scanned through your thread because I have recently "adopted" A yellow tang who is about 3" and has a slight but noticable case of HLLE and ich. I have heard so much about how to treat it and where it comes from but nothing is truly comfrimed. So I am going to give it a try. Anyways, are you using the cupramine for the HLLE or for the velvet you think it may have? Also what viamins and how much are you dosing? Thanks so much, I am hoping to save this little guy before it becomes too bad but would like to heard some one elses stories.
Also I have heard fresh water dips are really good for Velvet, dunno if anyone has said this before as I just scanned over thread. But thanks so much in advance!

 

[JandR]

OH YEAH meant to also ask are you using bare bottom on ur QT tank right now? I am with a sprinkle of sand didnt know which was best. Thnks

 

[GrendelPrime]

here u go JandR everything u need to know about Qtanks http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23584-fish-quarantine-process-step-step.html

 

[Rhodes19]

Rhodes, I have just scanned through your thread because I have recently "adopted" A yellow tang who is about 3" and has a slight but noticable case of HLLE and ich. I have heard so much about how to treat it and where it comes from but nothing is truly comfrimed. So I am going to give it a try. Anyways, are you using the cupramine for the HLLE or for the velvet you think it may have? Also what viamins and how much are you dosing? Thanks so much, I am hoping to save this little guy before it becomes too bad but would like to heard some one elses stories.
Also I have heard fresh water dips are really good for Velvet, dunno if anyone has said this before as I just scanned over thread. But thanks so much in advance!

Hi Jandr,

Sorry to hear about your tang, hopefully you can get him better. I think the best thing you can do for HLLE is to make sure his QT is a low stress place and provide him the best food/nutrients you can and provide the best water quality you can. As for using cupramine, I had to use it because she developed marine velvet. I did do a fresh water dip but she developed velvet any way so I'm not sure if dips help for velvet or not. I do know that fresh water dip do help with ich but only getting it off the skin and gills, you still need to treat with cupramine. I can't think of the brand of vitamins I picked up but I'll check when I get home and let you know. What I did when I was feeding her mysis, or any other food, I soaked it in the liquid vitamins for about 15-20 minutes before feeding that way she could ingest them.

For my QT, I went with a bare bottom, that way I could see if anything had fallen off the fish. Plus, I noticed I could see how clean or dirty the qt was based on the amount of detritus you could see on the bottom as well. Something else to consider with a sand bottom is what is it made from? If it's calcium based, it will absorb some of the copper/cupramine making your treatment less effective. Leebca recommends using a silica based sand if you want/must use sand for you fish. My next fish is going to be a diamond sifter goby so I may need to put some silica sand in my qt first.

Something else that will help you with your fish is looking at the links leebca posted. They are packed full of good info and I learned a lot more about HLLE and nutrition.

If your tang has HLLE and ich, I would do a fresh water dip (if he looks strong and is eating well) and then start a 2 week cupramine treatment. Also make sure he has plenty of good food and good water. Let me know how it goes. HTH