Side-by-side Biocube Refugium

[vsindorf]

Hello Reefers!

The topic on my mind is abnormal refugia. Sounds fun, eh? Thought so
Anyways, as I am a marine ecologist, not an engineer, plumber, or man, I need some help.

The overview: My dad has a 29g biocube that is currently being revived and next to it (currently functioning as the clownfish's summer home), an 8g biocube. I'm in charge of making it a pretty, low-maintenance system. I know that two separate reefs, especially two nano reefs, will be too much for my parents to handle. So the choice is whether to make it one system or let the 8g sit empty, sad, and unfulfilled. I vote for the former.

This is my plan (sorry I can't figure out how to rotate it!):


The 8g (future display fuge) is about 4 inches lower than the 28g. This would enable me to use gravity/suction to drive flow from the display to the fuge. Is this the best way to do it? Would the rates of flow in/out be more consistent if I used a pump to drive out flow?

What I want to know is, could it work? (I have a feeling that it should. I've seen people do it on other sites.)
Then we can work out details.

Cheers!
Tori

 

[ddelozier]

are there plans to put the 8g underneath, or is the 8g going to sit side by side. if i remember correctly the 8g nano has dimensions of 11.7 x 13.8 x 13.8. regardless of underneath or side by side, you will probably need to baffel it off. Does it have a built in overflow, or is it a strait up glass/acrylic box? we Can help you figure out how to do it, but we need a few more details, pics would be helpful too.

 

[BLADEYAMAHA]

You can do it side by side but using a sump and having a drain from the DT and the Refugium to the sump and back from the sump to both the DT and the Refugium would be the most reliable setup.

 

[BLADEYAMAHA]

you can do it side by side but using a sump and having a drain from the dt and the refugium to the sump and back from the sump to both the dt and the refugium would be the most reliable setup.

imho.

 

[rufus2008]

I was told never to do a double pump. The reasoning is if one of the pumps quit your gonna have 28 gallons of water on the floor! Better to do an overflow and one return pump.

 

[ddelozier]

if you want both to be Display tanks, a common shared refugium is possible. If you are wanting to make a refugium for the 29, the 8g will be a bit small. Doing a side by side configuration with the smaller tank being the sump/fuge isnt going to be a particularly attractive option. Refugiums by their very nature are places that algae grows. On the wals, micro algae, and its not very attractive. Thats why sump/fuge is usually concealed under the stand. depends on what you want the refugium to do. If all yu want is a place to put the skimmer and heater, plus add a small bit of water volume, the 8g underneath the 29 will work just fine. If you are wanting a true refugium, baffling off the 8 to make it effective might be tricky. I have a 29, and i can can fit a standard 10g under it, but it depends on the stand. if you need the fuge for nutrient export, an 8g may not be big enough to house algae in a way that helps much. It can be done, but it will be tricky. you might be better off getting some Fern Cularpa or a "Display" Algae to put in the 29. They add to the beauty of the tank, and export nutrients without the "NEED" for a fuge.

 

[vsindorf]

Right, the plan right now is to do the two tanks side by side.
As far as baffling, the biocubes have three back chambers. The water from the front display area overflows into the first chamber, which flows over a drip tray (usually housing filter floss) into the middle chamber (which comes originally with bioballs). Then the water feeds into the third chamber which houses the return pump. I feel like this set up would function as a "built in" baffle, especially if the water from the DT flows in over the filter floss in the second chamber. The function of baffling is just to break up water flow, right, so that the water in the main part of the fuge is calm, no bubbles, etc?

Regarding the double pump issue, first I have never had a pump fail on me. Not saying this is a good reason for not taking necessary precautions against Murphy's law, but still. My main concern is the flow rate of the pump being greater than that of the overflow siphon, which would then overflow the dt. Also it seems more possible that the siphon would break and the fuge would empty into the tank/floor than one of the pumps quitting?

And devin, I understand your points. I know that an 8g fuge is a little silly and obviously if my intent was to set up a great fuge for my 29, i would use a 10g under the stand, but with the current situation, I think a cool 8g fuge is possible. I actually love algae and would love to have a "display fuge" with pretty macros and rock. It was my impression that with proper water quality and lighting microalgae shouldn't be growing anywhere in the system, even the fuge.

 

[ddelozier]

The algae on the glass will grow reqardless of how well you keep your parameters. Thats the reason we keep snails and crabs for the sand/rock. keeping nitrites/phosphates out of your water is impossible if you have fish/inverts. Even coral produce waste. That said, if you want to circulate water through the 8, and set it up as a Macro algae farm, or planted tank, you would probably be better off not using micro algae, but instead put a shop light or something over the 8, and grow some mangroves in it. Depending on the variety, they grow quie easily, and i've even heard(though never tested it personally) that they can replace both micro algae and the skimmer. They are quite lovely from what i've seen. I am planning to setup a Mangrove fuge for my 29 at some point, just to see what it does compared to micro+skimmer. just have to trim the mangroves, and remove dead leaves before they hit the water. floating leaves will fowl the water, releasing captured trates, trites and phosphates. If i were going to setup a fuge, where it was going to be more 2ndary DT than hidden sump/fuge, thats what i would do. With mangroves, the slower the flow the better.

the other consideration with the side by side, is how to get the water back and forth. A syphon between the two will be tough to keep working, i've tried it. If the water levels are roughly equal, it will take 2-4 1" Syphons just to keep up with a 120g/hr pump. if the water levels arent equal, you face Major risk of the syphon breaking, and the pump draining the fuge, thus overflowing the DT. If you run 2 pumps, yhou will have to plumb in ball valves, because no 2 pumps are ever the exact same. the GPH rating on the box is aproximate. If you raise the return pump off the bottom, so its not possible to drain the fuge/overflow the dt, you risk burning up the pump if the syphon breaks. you could use an overflow box, or a DYI overflow that would be harder to break the syphon, but thats going to be quite un attractive, but that's the best choice i can recommend. maybe hide it in the back.

I have tried side by side configurations before. I've never had long term luck getting them to work well. But that was a while ago, i've learned alot since then. I'll be facinated to see what you figure out. Plz post some pics of it.

 

[chadwick]

ok hope this worked picture of my sump by my tank. Have shut offs on intake and return. It does not pump as much water as I like it works. 34 gallon rsm20 gallon sump. 3/4 inch pvc pipe. U tube made out of pvc. drilled hole in top of pvc u tube inserted a airline with a shut off on end of the line. I use this to start the siphon. You have to stay on top of topping the water off. i use the shut off vavle to regulate the water going back to dt. It is touchy has to be just about right.

 

[vsindorf]

Hey Chadwick, thanks for the picture and description! I wonder if you could give me a few more details, maybe a diagram? You said that you use a pump and a siphon? does the siphon break often, or only when you get behind on top-offs?

 

[vsindorf]

Okay, I have been ruminating. First I know not everyone is familiar with biocube setup so I made a little diagram to explain it. That will help in further discussions I think.
Here you go!

Now, here is what I was thinking about refugiums. It's basically what I posted before, but a little more refined:

First, I think I need someone to explain overflows to me. Do they work by siphon? pump? I don't fully understand...but there is a small one by Eshopps that I think would fit (i need to measure still...) and I would rather not drill my tank...especially since it's all set up already. I just don't understand overflow boxes at all...

 

[Blue Space]

The only problem I can foresee is the fact that pumps can and do fail and power outtages happen. Since these are AIO tanks there's barely enough room to place redundancy in the system (I know, I have one). So the fact that you're using a mixture of pumps and siphon to move water from tank to tank with no redundancy built in *could be a problem if pump #3 fails.

Now, if you made pump #3 redundant, and your gravity siphon never stopped, you'd be in the clear... unless the power went out and your DT overflowed your fuge and eventually watered your carpet. You can avoid that by using a stand pipe connected to your DT drain, limiting the amount of water that can empty into your fuge. Being that it's located in the rear chamber it's less likely that you'll have a critter clog the drain but it still could happen... and if pump #3 kept on a-pumpin' -well there goes water all over the floor until your pump is no longer submerged. For this reason I would recommend using a tiny float valve on the DT that would shut off pump #3 in that scenario.

Needless to say, this could get a little more complicated if you wanted to build in fail-safes. Good luck on this build and please keep us posted!

 

[vsindorf]

Chris, these were all potential issues that I was pondering this week.
I feel like the way to make it a rather fail safe system is to feed water from the dt to the fuge by overflow/gravity - which can't fail, right? then even if one pump fails I won't have a flooded living room because water level will drop - all I will do is burn out a pump...right?

As is probably abundantly evident I have very little expertise in matters of tank DIY and the subtleties of powerheads, etc. This is why I need all of the advice I can get!

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by redundancies...an extra pump? a sump? Also, what exactly do you mean by 'stand pipe'? haha probably one of those words like 'lug nut' that every man is born knowing, but I am sadly ignorant.

I'm interested in the float valve...can that attach to any pump? If I could put a float valve on both pumps, would it be possible for me to just pump water from the dt to the fuge and back? That way even if pump rates don't match exactly, I will be able to maintain correct water levels?

 

[Blue Space]

I feel like the way to make it a rather fail safe system is to feed water from the dt to the fuge by overflow/gravity - which can't fail, right? then even if one pump fails I won't have a flooded living room because water level will drop - all I will do is burn out a pump...right?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by redundancies...an extra pump? a sump? Also, what exactly do you mean by 'stand pipe'?

I'm interested in the float valve...can that attach to any pump? If I could put a float valve on both pumps, would it be possible for me to just pump water from the dt to the fuge and back? That way even if pump rates don't match exactly, I will be able to maintain correct water levels?

You're right in that aspect, that gravity doesn't fail... well what happens if pump #3 in your drawing fails? The DT would continue to feed water to the fuge, and without pump #3 to return that water to the DT you will flood.

That's where redundancy comes in -having a back up pump. Although in the all-in-one tanks there's not much room at all so that could be a problem.

A stand pipe is used on a drain. The level, or height of the stand pipe dictates how much water will drain out into the fuge.

A float valve is used on water return lines and allows you to shut off a water supply when the water reaches a certain level. Bulk Reef Supply and other places have some small ones that might work for your purposes. Although, regular maintanence is required and they can fail due to salt build up. Just an idea...

 

[vsindorf]

Huh. I see what you're saying...but if pump #3 fails then the water level in the dt drops since more water isn't being added to it, so eventually the flow from the dt to the fuge will stop right? if it's fed by overflow?

I'm going to look into these float valves. very intriguing idea...

 

[vsindorf]

OKAY! Thanks to Chris's wise advice, I think I have a plan involving two float switches attached to two powerheads. What if I attach a float switch in the first chamber of each tank that switches the outgoing pump off when the waterlevel gets too low? That way the pumps can run nearly continuously but there will be a safeguard against draining one tank into the other (and onto the floor)...The only thing that could go wrong then is if one of the pumps quit, but still only so much water could leave either tank because the float switch will shut off the pump...right?

First, is my concept okay? Help me trouble shoot this theoretically then we can talk practicalities like attaching float switches and wiring...

 

[Blue Space]

Have you worked on plans for this yet? Draw it up and let's have a looksee.

 

[Pat]

Go to U-Tube and search for DIY sumps. You'll learn all about DIY overflows by video. That's the way I learned and got a good understanding of the siphoning, etc. My sump / fuge are along the side of my DT in a closet with the pipes going through the wall, with a 600 GPH return pump, and an overflow I found on line for about 40 bucks, along with a 15 Dollar siphon pump. My 20G-L Sump sits about 8 inch's lower the my 60G DT. Works great. Need to adjust overflow device to a level that will not overflow the sump in case of a power outage or a pump failing and make sure there is a check valve in the return pump. Your idea looks fine to me, just need a good, dependable overflow device.

 

[new2reefing]

The idea of having 2 pumps to control the water level scares me, and relying on 2 float switches makes it worse. My suggestion is this. Use an overflow along with the pump and float switch. If the overflow is setup right it will only allow so much water to leave. To match the flow of the overflow install the float switch on DT. Pump from huge to DT. When the dt is full the pump will stop. When the water in the dt gets low enough the pump turns on. If the siphon breaks in the overflow. It will only pump till the float turns off the pump.

 

[jerry26]

this is a dead thread guys.