Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[Garage1217]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I really find reading & researching ATS systems fascinating. I definitely agree with the topic and that it works as I had an old small 18G nano with 10G sump. The fuge area of the sump had a 13W CFL over the center section with the small skimmer section and return pump section blocked from the light. I grew some of the nastiest crap you could ever fathom in that small fuge from turf algea, cheato, all sorts of slimy crud and so forth. And my display was always flawless looking and I rarely ever had to clean the glass on that tank. I guess I just never really connected the dots as to why that small system was so crazy successful but I feel it was because of the nasty crap growing in the fuge area and that I had to clean it up, scraping loads of goop and other junk out on a regular basis.

Anyways great read. Since I am going fuge-less on my new build. I may consider doing a ATS setup as I have plenty of room in the stand.

 

[niqiri]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

What is the best way to plumb an ATS from an overflow?

 

[deehz]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

For a reef tank, this is what you want, so that the water nutrient chemistry can become what it is in the ocean (algae controls the water nutrient chemistry is in the ocean).
If a tank is new, you can start with scrubber-only right away. If they tank is older and heavily fed and heavily filtered with various devices, then you want to wait for three full screens. DOC.

SM, Thank you! Now of to start it!

 

[carp51]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

can you use led grow lights? ive built my filter using yours as a template maybe improved with the led grow lights. i used a rubbermaid container for my external sump, pvc spraybar,150gph pump(im only pumping about 21/2 feet, compact flouresent bulb 1100k. but i think the led grow light my improve the growth i will let you know. i ill also send pics of my system. my system is small because my tank is only 29 g bio cube. thanks great idea!

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

a higher level of Nitrate equates to a higher DOC in the water column

It could, but does not have to be. The more chlorophyll (algae) in the system, the less nitrate, and the more doc (food), there will be. In the ocean, algae is 90 percent of all life, so there is massive amounts of DOC, and no nitrate, in the top 100 meters (300 feet) of water. As you go deeper, there is not enough light for algae to live, so nitrate increases, and DOC decreases.

and you could get that or better level of DOC in the absence of Nitrate via ATS, and get even healthier brighter corals. Does that make sense, or is Nitrate not considered a DOC?

Nitrate is an inorganic nutrient (it has no carbon), while DOC is an organic food. When bacteria eat organics, they take the carbon are leave behind ammonia, which turns into nitrate.

I guess I just never really connected the dots as to why that small system was so crazy successful but I feel it was because of the nasty crap growing in the fuge area and that I had to clean it up, scraping loads of goop and other junk out on a regular basis.

Yes that was why.

I am going fuge-less on my new build.

This is a great way to keep more food particles in the water for the corals to eat, instead of having them settle in a sump.

What is the best way to plumb an ATS from an overflow?

can you use led grow lights?

No, they are too hard to DIY. Stick with CFL.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Low-light Scrubbers

Here is something new, different, and untested. I have not built one yet, but it should work for either SW or FW if the size and flow are correct. It is a vertical scrubber that you hang on the wall, and it requires NO electricity. It is a "low-light" scrubber:

I got the idea when reading a study about algae growth in freshwater streams:

"Algal Response to Nutrient Enrichment In Forested Oligotrophic Streams". Journal of Phycology, June 2008. ALGAL RESPONSE TO NUTRIENT ENRICHMENT IN FORESTED OLIGOTROPHIC STREAM1 - Veraart - 2008 - Journal of Phycology - Wiley Online Library

"Algae inhabiting forested streams have the capacity to acclimate to low light intensity. These light conditions affect their photosynthetic efficiency, but do not impair growth rates, in particular, in the case of thin diatom-dominated communities."

In other words, they don't filter as much per square inch (or per square cm) of area, but they do operate on very low light. Apparently it is mostly diatoms that grow in these low-light conditions.

The advantage of a scrubber like this should be obvious: It requires no electricity to power the screen. It still requires a pump, however, since the top of the scrubber would (probably) be high above the top of the tank. The scrubber is designed to operate on the light already available in the room, which would vary greatly depending on how strong the light bulbs are in the room, and how much sunlight comes in through the windows. The more average light the room has, the smaller the scrubber can be. The less light, the bigger it needs to be. Basically, the scrubber uses more area to make up for less light. And since the light is so low, the type of algae that is able to survive is (apparently) mostly diatoms.

Just as with regular scrubbers, the wider the unit it, the more flow is required. So in the spirit of keeping it from consuming too much electricty, a smaller pump could be used if the unit were narrow and tall. But the bottom of the unit will need to drain into either the tank or the sump, so there will be a limit to how low the bottom can be. And the limit to the top will be the ceiling. A tradeoff will need to be made, maybe so that it looks like a vertical picture on the wall. Fortunately the flow does not need to be as much as a regular scrubber, since it is one-sided only.

It will have to be experimented with to see if a clear cover is needed to stop any water dropletts from splashing out. Many people have decorative waterfalls of the same size as these, and they have no cover on them, so maybe water dropletts getting on the floor will not happen. Evaporation would be high though, and this might be reason enough to consider a clear cover.

Cleaning could (apparently) be done by having a removeable screen or porous sheet, just like a regular scrubber has. It would be big though, and would drip as you took it out. Also it probably would not fit into a sink, and so would need a bathtub or shower (or outside) for cleaning. A possible fix for this might be a very flexibe woven plastic mesh, which you could fold up like a towell and easily clean in a sink. A material like this might not lay down flat when it's in the scrubber, however.

This type of scrubber would be easiest to try for somebody with a cement floor, lots of wall space, open widows or skylights, a low sump, high ceilings, and a big sink or patio for cleaning. I have no idea of the size required for the unit.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

New Feeding Guideline:

Each cube of frozen food you feed per day needs 12 square inches of screen, with a light on both sides totalling 12 watts. Thus a nano that is fed one cube a day would need a screen 3 X 4 inches with a 6 watt bulb on each side. A larger tank that is fed 10 cubes a day would need a screen 10 X 12 inches with 60 watts of light on each side.

 

[ddinox64]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

That would be a piece of interesting art on the wall. Live art.

 

[MischiefManaged]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Will an ATS work for dinoflagellates?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I just googled that because I had no idea what they were. Are you wanting to produce more, or to get rid of them? I'm curious as to what their role is the in contained marine system (versus the ocean). I seriously doubt one could experience "red tide" in a closed system unless they were trying to on purpose...but what do I know!!

 

[MischiefManaged]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Dino's are a nasty type of algae that I've beent battling in my 270 gallon system. It's a slimey, bubbly algae that coats and smothers everything.. Here's a link to a thread about it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Based on a quick read of that thread, since they are an algae, and the ATS will out-compete all other algae and cause it to cease growth in the DT (because it takes up all the nutrients), logically it should wipe out dinos.

At least that's my "high altitude flyover" viewpoint. There could be something else I'm not considering.

That being said, it has been repeated several times that cyanobacteria can be wiped out also. It takes more time, because it can make it's own NO3. Is has also been stated by Santa Monica that cyano can actually appear after the ATS has been up and running and wiped out the green hair or other nuisance algae, and then the ATS will eventually "win the battle" and the cyano will also disappear.

I can tell you by experience that cyano is tu-u-u-u-ff to get rid of (and I have) so if an ATS can battle that, and dinos are a form of algae as well, logic tells me that it should do the trick.

 

[MischiefManaged]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

from my understanding, the dinoflagellates are a lot more difficult that cyano.

 

[Frankie]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

from my understanding, the dinoflagellates are a lot more difficult that cyano.

Hello MischiefManaged, welcome to RS
Dino's just like all other advanced bacteria feeding algae are best removed by 1. physically, 2. water top off quality and 3. water changes.
Most nuisance algae come from poor top off water and make up water that is not 0 on a TDS reading. If you correct these three things and do 20% water changes 2x weekly for a month I bet you will see some drastic changes with your problem.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Will an ATS work for dinoflagellates

If you mean remove dino's from your display, yes.

Dino's just like all other advanced bacteria feeding algae

Algae do no feed on bacteria; they feed in inorganic nutrients, in order of preference: Ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. Cyano, if it can't get ammonia/ammonium, nitrite or phosphate, will take ("fix") nitrogen out of the water directly, but it still needs phosphate.

are best removed by 1. physically [...] 3. water changes

These are the worst, and hardest, ways to remove algae. Aside from the time and difficulty of both methods, water changes also remove food for the corals and small fish, and add trace metals that accumulate in tank. If you do not have a scrubber or fuges/macros (both of which remove metals), the metals contribute to old tank syndrome. Tanks that use scrubbers do not get old tank syndrome.

For top-off water, it is assumed that 0 TDS water is being used. However, even if it's not 0, the "stuff" remaining in the top off water will still be removed by the algae in a scrubber. And this includes chloramines: Algae produces Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), as well as ascorbate, both of which break chloramines into chlorine+ammonia; the chlorine off-gasses, and the ammonia is eaten by the algae.

Most nuisance algae come from poor top off water and make up water that is not 0 on a TDS reading

Incorrect. Nuisance algae comes from lack of nutrient export. It does not matter how much you put "into" your tank, whether it be "bad" top off water, or feeding. If your export of nutrients is large enough, you will have zero nuisance algae in your tank. Skimmers do not export any nutrients, at all, so if you only have a skimmer you will be building up nutrients (and nuisance algae) quickly.

Remember that in the ocean, algae is 90% of all life (besides bacteria), and it does all the filtering, and all the feeding. That is why the ocean has very low nutrients (at least in the top 300 feet where algae live)... because the algae consume them. Below 300 feet, nutrients jump up to very high levels.

If you would like to familiarize yourself with how the ocean operates, search for "primary production" here:
ReefBase :: Main Publications

 

[Sunhot]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Hi SantaMonica

I am going to get a new tank with the sump that he provided on the
Craiglist (please see below link)

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb...981444702.html

Do you think I can use the Turf Algae Filter on the sump that he had? If
so, what is the best way to put the Turf Algae Filter on the sump? If you
don't mind I can buy one of the Turf Algae Filter from you that you had
before; if you still have it but no use for you.

Thank you!!

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Here is a link that works:

90 gallon 36x24x24 reef ready aquarium

That sump looks like it was built to have frags on the top tray. If you are going to put frags in it, with a light, then you won't have much room to put a scrubber in there, so the scrubber will have to be outside.

If you are not going to be needing that shelf for frags, then you can cut out all those shelves (using a razor blade), because all you need for a tank-and-scrubber is an open, empty sump. This will give you more room to build a simple scrubber, although you won't have much room to reach in there, because the sump is so tall. If you remove all the shelves, then the scrubber can go down inside, but it will be a bit of a hassle to get the screen out each week.

Actually, no sump at all is best, but this requires the scrubber be above the tank, and also requires an auto-topoff system, so this is a bit more advanced. But it does allow the most food for the corals.

The cheapest and best solution (for you) would be to get rid of that sump and buy a cheap $10 glass tank, or a smaller sump, and build a scrubber for it. If you can't do all the plumbing required for this, and have to keep the sump as-is, I think the best thing is to do an external scrubber.

I see from the pic of the back of the cabinet that there is an extra valve; if you open that valve, water will pump out of the sump (probably for water changes, which you won't need with a scrubber). What you could do is connect an external scrubber to that valve, then have the scrubber drain back into the sump. This way you don't have to modify the sump or tank at all. Your main issue with this type of setup will controlling the light from the scrubber, since it will be outside the tank.

As for my scrubbers, I don't have any "left over" right now, sorry. I only have the SM100...
Algae Scrubbers • View topic - Now Available: Santa Monica 100 Acrylic Scrubber

 

[Sunhot]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Thank you for your adv.

 

[Frankie]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I am starting to question YOUR knowledge on how the ocean works now thank you very much~ beat_dead_horse

If you mean remove dino's from your display, yes.

90% of all dinoflagellates are marine plankton. Free-living dinoflagellates are what we find most common in aquariums today. They are parasites actually. How you think providing them a food source will remove them from an aquarium is beyond me.

Algae do no feed on bacteria; they feed in inorganic nutrients, in order of preference: Ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. Cyano, if it can't get ammonia/ammonium, nitrite or phosphate, will take ("fix") nitrogen out of the water directly, but it still needs phosphate.

I have yet to read anything about inorganic nutrients being Dinoflagellates food source. In fact, it is dead and dyeing plant matter, fish food, fish waste etc... that are the main fuels for these parasites.

These are the worst, and hardest, ways to remove algae. Aside from the time and difficulty of both methods, water changes also remove food for the corals and small fish, and add trace metals that accumulate in tank. If you do not have a scrubber or fuges/macros (both of which remove metals), the metals contribute to old tank syndrome. Tanks that use scrubbers do not get old tank syndrome.

This is just your way of pushing your agenda. from all the ATS systems I have seen they look to be about twice the work it takes to remove and replace water. The cleaning of the screens, salt creep being a constant problem, yadayadayada, I'll take a tube and suck water out of a tank any day over having all that algae and junk getting under my finger nails. Also the smell is less then desirable~
Old tank syndrome is just another word for "I'm to lazy to upkeep my aquarium". I have yet to recognize this as a scientific truth in the aquarium hobby. Propaganda spread out from less then 10 years of serious internet discussion groups. Get back to me on this one 20 years from now. I'm sure i'll be around to disprove this myth~
It is a fact that physical removal of algae is still the best way to eradicate it from a system. Actually this is what ATS are doing.
How on Gods good earth did you come up with water changes add metals to aquariums? Please elaborate.

Incorrect. Nuisance algae comes from lack of nutrient export. It does not matter how much you put "into" your tank, whether it be "bad" top off water, or feeding. If your export of nutrients is large enough, you will have zero nuisance algae in your tank. Skimmers do not export any nutrients, at all, so if you only have a skimmer you will be building up nutrients (and nuisance algae) quickly.

The biggest cause of cyano bacteria comes from poor water sources. Im not going to even waste my time on this one.
Just another beat_dead_horse

Remember that in the ocean, algae is 90% of all life (besides bacteria), and it does all the filtering, and all the feeding. That is why the ocean has very low nutrients (at least in the top 300 feet where algae live)... because the algae consume them. Below 300 feet, nutrients jump up to very high levels.

Were not keeping the ocean in our aquariums. And we will never be capable of doing in a glass box what mother nature does on a planet wide scale. We will always be dependent on mechanical filtration for long term aquarium keeping. I have seen your system and what happens when you let it go for too long in your YouTube video. It became over ridden with algae problems and even some of the equipment you were keeping started to fail. If you had a skimmer onboard I am sure you would not have had these problems.
Why you seem hell bent on disproving a long term proven method of nutrient removal via a protein skimmer is beyond me.
Now in all fairness, I have been a supporter to an extent of your method. I do like when people think outside the box and try other methods and have even made positive comments on your efforts and successes.

If you would like to familiarize yourself with how the ocean operates, search for "primary production" here:
ReefBase :: Main Publications

Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the great wall of others I have.
Here are a few you may want to read also:
http://www.chemistryexplained.com/Ar-Bo/Bioluminescence.html
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/a_lawler_111697.html
http://www.assurecontrols.com/info-dinoflagellates.htm

 

[redneckgearhead]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I have yet to read anything about inorganic nutrients being Dinoflagellates food source. In fact, it is dead and dyeing plant matter, fish food, fish waste etc... that are the main fuels for these parasites

Just a quick question. How can it be a parasite if it "eats" dead or dying matter? I thought a parasite would be surviving off of a larger host?

And another question. Is there something dangerous (to our tanks) about running the scrubbers? The theory seems sound to me but Im no scientist, and fairly new to aquariums so I dont know. It just seems some people on this site and others get very upset when you even mention the idea. Please explain.