Help with lighting

Lingcod

New Member
Hi, I have limited experience with reef tanks but am hitting an issue with a 120 gallon setup I have had for about 2 years now. I have several healthy fish in the tank a cleaner shrimp and some hermits that have all been there over a year minimum and all seem very healthy/happy. I cant find any issues with my water quality yet I have no luck keeping any type of corral alive in the tank. Anything I put in declines rapidly and I have to save it by moving it over to a Bio Cube 14 I have had set up slightly longer. Just to check up on myself I took my water to two different shops where they tested it and also found no issues at all. the first shop said there was no reason why corral should not make it in the tank and the second shop claimed I did not have enough lighting to support any type of corral at all. I currently have 2 150w metal halide lights along with twin 36? inch power compacts. The shop claimed if I purchased one of their T5 kits all my problems would be solved...... I really have no clue what else to do or try to resolve my problem but I just cant buy that I dont have enough lighting to support any type of corral. Im sorry the post is so long but any help/advice would be great because I am at my witts end.....

Thanx
 

FintasticJob

New Member
Your lights should be able to keep corals alive, the store just wants to make a sale. What type of corals are you putting in that die?
 

jjarbo1

Member
Your lighting is definitely sufficient. I have zooanthids, xenia polyps, and a pink montipora plate coral that are growing well under only 96W of T5s. If that LFS claims you should trade in metal halides for T5s then they should not be trusted.

Maybe you have a rogue destroyer of corals. I put in a peppermint shrimp who started decimating my xenia polyps until I moved them to the top where he couldn't get to them. I also had an electric blue hermit that would munch on them from time to time.

I use instant ocean and add Seachem calcium and carbonate once weekly on different days. I also add trace elements and iodine once a week. Maybe the coralline has sucked out all the nutrients; or maybe the salt you are using is deficient in something they need?

There are tons of things that can go wrong.
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
How are you acclimating the corals? Are you just drip acclimating them or are you also acclimating them to the light as well? MH is about as intense as it gets and especially if you don't acclimate them to this high lighting, you can kill them in a very short time.
 

BLAKEJOHN

Active Member
If your water params are good (please post tehm if you can) It is definatly not your lights ( you have the heighest standard of light available to us reefers). I would look at you method af acclimation, both to the tank and to the lighting.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
I think you need to boy-cott LFS #2 because they clearly only want to make a SALE from you.

While you could have STRONGER lights over a 120 you should be able to keep just about any type of coral in that system with "planned placement".

I suspect you have something else happening. As BLACKJOHN has said we need specific water parameter results (Good, normal, ok, etc are NOT water test results but are merely opinions by the LFS employee.

What's your SG of the tank?

Temp?

Filtration?

How often do you do water changes and how much?

How much FLOW do you have in the tank?

What TYPE of corals are we talking about specifically?

Lastly what do you mean by "Rapidly Declines"? Close up? Wither away? Get torn up?

Hang in there. We can over-come this issue :)

and WELCOME to RS :hallo:
 

Lingcod

New Member
Wow, i just got home from work and see all the replies already, thanx for getting back to me. Let me get to some of the questions.

First off the types of corral I have added was a colt and a few different types of zoes..... It may be somthing with the acclimation and ill take any advise I can there. I will say everything I did add was first in my Bio Cube for A good period of time under the stock lighting and did very well. When I moved it over I took my time and did the drip type system but I will say I dont know anything about adjusting it over to the different type of lighting. I did not realize that was a concern.......

On the other issues one other problem I have is almost no coralline growing in the tank. over the period its been set up very very little has grown and mainly on one rock in the center of the tank. I have tried additives like purple up and had no luck. I added rocks from by Bio Cube which grows the stuff like crazy and most dies off.

Sorry to make it so long but as far as my set up and parameters here we go.

Its a 120 with a 40 gallon sump. the first chamber has a gs2 skimmer that takes plenty of crud out. the second is the fuge and it has chaeto? in it. It also does not grow well. the first batch i put in died fast and the last is a small ball that wont die but wont grow. It has decent lighting and I have tried it in 24 and 12 hour stints. it also has good flow through the fuge. the last chamber has the return pump (1050 gph) and a second pump thats runs through the UV steralizer back to the first chamber. In the tank I have about 200 pounds of live rock and twin Seio 800 gph powerheads. I actually just got a Koralia 3 in the mail today i was gonna try adding to get some of the "dead spots" in the corners and add a bit more flow.

I use instant ocean salt and pure well water. I dont use any type of R/O unit but I use the same water/salt set up in the Cube with no problems so I dont think thats an issue.....

Anyway my Params... my nitrate/amonia are always at zero.... I really show nothing in the water there.... I also show zero phosphates but I understand they can be tough to test for. My SG is always near 1.022 and I keep the tank at 76 degrees. Also my calcium levels are good at 450...... I use an API reefmaster kit.....

Ill stop here and see what yall think and answer any other questions as they come up. But again thank you for the replies, I was hessitant to try this out. I had asked one other forum a while ago and just got no replies at all....
 

BLAKEJOHN

Active Member
First off I will say that well wter is probly no the best choice. But if it is working for you and you dont seem to have algae problems I will leave that issue alone.

Second I would bump the SG to 1.026 which is NSW levels. Why have it lower than nature does?

Lastly I would raise the temp up to 79-80. They say the safe range is 77-84. 76 is a little cool I prefer 80 myself.

Light acclimation: Corals need to be acclimated to the new lighting. they do not like the sudden change. When acclimating corals to a new light weather it be dimmer light or brighter you should put them at the bottom and slowly over a couple of weeks time move them up to thier final placement.
 

Lingcod

New Member
Great, i will try that out with the lighting, SG and temp. I actually did some research on the light acclimation after I saw it suggested and learned a lot. Any idea why the coralline wont grow? I always assumed it was the same problem as why the coral will not survive. I figured there is just some type of nutrient missing but I have no clue what it would be.
 

69frogs

New Member
just a currious question here.....It was said that the tank has been set up for 2 years now correct? so is it possible that the light bulbs have reached their end and are now throwing off the wrong spectrum?
 

Lingcod

New Member
I have changed both the MH and the PC bulbs twice since its been set up. I Actually stopped using the halides for several months because I saw no sense in using the elctricity since the fish dont seem to mind just the PCs running. I have had them all back up and runnig for a while now though.
 

BLAKEJOHN

Active Member
Great, i will try that out with the lighting, SG and temp. I actually did some research on the light acclimation after I saw it suggested and learned a lot. Any idea why the coralline wont grow? I always assumed it was the same problem as why the coral will not survive. I figured there is just some type of nutrient missing but I have no clue what it would be.
I have found that very low phosphate levels are needed for strong corraline growth. I do a 10% water change (about 8 gallons) ever week so my Mg levels are good and my Ca levels are a steady 410ppm. Once I added my refugium and got Phospates below .5 the corraline exploded!!

Good Luck!
 

prow

Well-Known Member
hummm a challange:D

lets start with the lighting. i have to disagree with most here on the lighting, 2x 150watt MH, IMO, is not enough for the average 120gal. a standard 120 gal is 48x24x25--you need 2x 250watt MH for a 25" deep tank, even 2x 400watters would not be too much, depending on the coral. of course this is based on the standard 120gal which is 25" tall, so what are your tanks dimensions and how old are the bulbs?

ok on to water quality. so far i see the following
specific gravity of 1.022(i agree with the above raise it to 1.025-1.026)
temp of 76(its ok but i also like to keep mine at 79-80 during summer and 78-79 during winter, kinda like above) was this the temp during mid day? dose the temp drop at night that you know of?
NO3=0.0
NH4=0.0
phos=0.0
Ca+ is 450

those are not terrible nimbers but some very important info is missing here.

what is your alkalinity?

what is your ph--need to know the highest and lowest during a 24hour period. if you have a ph monitor just check the log. if you dont have one you will need to test around 7am ish for the lowest level and then again around 9-10pm after lights out for the highest. if your not using a ph monitor what kit are you using?
 

Smiley1

Member
the second shop claimed I did not have enough lighting to support any type of corral at all. I currently have 2 150w metal halide lights along with twin 36? inch power compacts. The shop claimed if I purchased one of their T5 kits all my problems would be solved....

Thats a shop that needs to close their doors and go into car sales...
 

reefcrazy

New Member
ya i would get more light in that tank like a duel 250 m/h 14k and keep the 36 inch power compacts. but the coral you have put in the tank colt and a few zoes would be fine with the light you have.water quality is not bad but i would get that salt up. and just for hell of it run a copper test on it. good luck
 

Lingcod

New Member
Ok, as far as the SG I did a water change last night and brought it up some. I didnt want to do it all at once but ill get it at .024 .025. As far as the temp im bringing that up also.As far as my KH its very steady between 9-10 dkh. My PH stays in the 8-8.5 range range. I have caught it a bit higher a few times but not much. I have never seen it low. I do not have a PH monitor however and I will try checking it at the times you showed. To be honest I dont ever try testing it very early in the morning. I will deffinetly research a monitor to get a better idea of where it goes. The strange part with the tank to me is everything is very steady. I dont get a rise and fall of anything really. I will admitt I got frustrated with the coral not growing and really slowed down on my maintenance for a period of time. Even during that time my nitrate/nitrite/amonia/phosphate never registered any levels. I dont know if this is why my chaeto wont grow because it has nothing to feed on. I grow very little of any type of algae in the tank. My yellow eye tang can pretty much keep the tank spotless. The temp stays very steady also. Its in the livingroom which keeps the most constant temp in the summer and winter. The tank temp goes up a bit over the course of the day from the MH but it is only about a degree or so.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
ok so your levels are;
alk 3.5/meq.l(9-10dkh)
Ca+ 450
ph 8.0-8.5 (def get the monitor, is this the color range for your kit?)

the deal with ph is your swing, you want it to be less than 0.2(ex. 8.10 in the am then 8.30 max through the day). during photoperiods your ph should rise via photosynthesis(eats up CO2) and at night CO2 acumulates, as CO2 uptake reduces during nonphotoperiods resulting in acumulation of CO2 thus, ph decrease. with your kit, if that is the color range, you will not be able to tell what the swing is. if your tank is hitting 8.5 or possible above its likely your tank is low on CO2. this will also cause your cheato not to grow as CO2 is alga's main source of carbon, which is very much needed for grow. low CO2 levels usually result in big ph swings aswell and that is very stressful for on corals, especially with new additions--this may or may not be an issue as we dont know the exact ph. an example of wanted and unwanted levels; this is for change in ph effect,
ph 8.0
alk 4.0meq/l (11 dkh)
Ca+ 400ish
these are good--very normal
ph 8.5
alk 4.0
Ca+ 400ish
these are not good, entering non-biological precipitation ranges.

samething here but instead we will keep ph high and change Ca+/alk levels;
ph 8.5
alk 2.5(7dkh)
Ca+ 260ish
these are ok(hard to keep but ok) now with this ph(maybe around your current level) if you raise Ca+/alk around your current levels-
ph 8.5
alk 4.2(12 dkh)
Ca+ 410
these are not good and your at risk for non-biological precipitation(FYI if precipitation occurs your ph,Ca+ and alk will change).

with a ph of 8.5 higher levels of Ca+ and alk are not good.
these numbers are entering the non-biological precipitation range(causes Ca+ and alk to fall out of solution.) lower ph's keep things in solution. with lower ph's you can run Ca+ and alk levels on the high side of normal, with higher ph's you will want Ca+ and alk levels on the low side of normal ranges. your running everything on the high side of normal which is risky. with your alk and Ca+ levels if your ph is running 8.5 then you will want to bring the ph down some in the range of 8.2. or you could lower Ca+ and alk levels to the lower/mid ranges of normal.

if your swing is 8.0 to 8.5 then your going in and out of good and bad levels in regaurds to Ca+ and alk levels. so lets rule out low CO2 issues first, its monitor time:)....still do the night and day time testing with your kit, might get lucky and see it fall in different color zones. with out a monitor using a kit with a color range indicating ph levels inbetween 8.0-8.5 you will not be able to rule out ph swings as an issue.

what are you dosing, everything. Ca+ sups/alk sups/buffers/anything and everything else?


on the light, i agree its not enough but even so softies should live unless your bulbs are too old and omitting mostly UV rays, how old are you bulb and how many hours is your photoperiod?


another thought is stray voltage- which usually doesnt effect fish much as they can move away/around electrical waves, unlike corals. do you have a voltage meter or multi tester handy? if not they are cheap, homedepot auto parts store....need one that has a setting for AC voltage (VAC).


so for now lets rule out these three possible issues;
1. ph swings---need a monitor here or more sensitive kits.
2. old light bulds and UV damage--just need to know how old the bulbs are..and if you have any fan blowing around the bubls while they are on.
3. stray voltage--just need to check with a voltage meter, cutting your finger and sticking it in the tank to check for shock dosent help unless you have alot of stray voltage. stray voltage may still be an issue even if you dont get a shock so testing with voltage tester or volt meter would be my suggestion.
 

Lingcod

New Member
Ok, first thing the bulbs are not to old. I would say they are 4 months at the oldest. the MH are both 14K and the PCs one is a 50/50 and the other is 10k.

As far as stray voltage, I will dig up my volt meter from wherever I last left it and check that out, never thought of that one.

And for the PH I will order a monitor tonight. Im guessing that will be the most accurate and easiest way to keep track of it. My kit has the colors so similar I really cant tell the difference between 8 and 8.5. I thought swings had to be larger than that to cause issues.

And last as far as dosing, I really dont use anything. Everyone has a different opinion on what to do from tons of stuff to nothing and since I have had a hard time finding exactly what im missing or needing in my water I have not messed with adding more stuff........
 

prow

Well-Known Member
And for the PH I will order a monitor tonight. Im guessing that will be the most accurate and easiest way to keep track of it. My kit has the colors so similar I really cant tell the difference between 8 and 8.5. I thought swings had to be larger than that to cause issues.
good move. for a reef you really need one. i would also suggest you get a refractometer, for your salinity, if you dont have one. those swing arm deals are fine for fish only tanks but way to inaccurate for a reef.

And last as far as dosing, I really dont use anything. Everyone has a different opinion on what to do from tons of stuff to nothing and since I have had a hard time finding exactly what im missing or needing in my water I have not messed with adding more stuff........
with just starting on corals you might not need to dose much of anything, regulat water changes may be enough to maintain levels. but as you corals and reef grows you will want to start dosing. not all sups are made equal...here is a good read for you that might help you decide on what is the best sup for your tanks needs.

Chemistry and the Aquarium
 
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