fully cured Live Rock...

[nanoreefing4fun]

The term "fully cured rock is so subjective", my rock in my tank is fully cured "one year fully cured".

So, if you order the rock in my tank from me (or from the best company there is that has fully cured Live Rock) and I wrapped my rock in wet newspaper & sent it to you & you got it in say 48 hours, being out of water, if you had room in your tank, would you think you could just drop it in you tank, with no ill effect on your fish ???

I would never try it, I would be scared it would kick off a cycle & kill my fish...

I am just saying... food for thought...

I still think the RS stickies... that suggest the following ... as the "normal" way a tank cycles is correct for most and sound advise - I will concede, if it works for you another way, this proves there is more than one way to do it. I just get scared recommending to new members, adding "cured" live rock one week & fish the next... no agenda here, I want everyone to have success with their new RSM's !
:chair: :jabber:
Ammonia will rise - then fall near 0, followed by - nitrites will rise then fall near 0, then nitrates will rise... then do water changes to bring down the nitrates - cycle complete add cuc, add coral, add fish


Cycling a tank:

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...something-cycling-breaking-new-reef-tank.html

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...ners/20945-just-exactly-what-cycled-tank.html

 

[Reefmack]

My fully cured rock was shipped overnight from a rock supplier with a great reputation for fully cured rock, that he cures in his own tanks, and in a box for at the most 24 hours. Added some live bacteria product with the rock, never saw measurable ammonia or nitrite, and had a couple fish in within a week (still have them). It can be done, but the catch is knowing if the rock you're getting is really fully cured.

That's where testing is very important! If it's not fully cured you'll know it by getting measurable amounts of ammonia & nitrites. Even with fully cured IMO it's still best to add fish slowly and not put too much load on the bacteria till they can multiply and catch up. Just my experience with the same results on 4 tank setups.

Myself, I would never go with anything but fully cured rock, and overnight shipping from a place with a great reputation (or from a local LFS). The longer it takes to get rock in the tank the more chance there is of die-off. With a lot of places the rock never sees water for days between the origin of collection and your house - lower cost but a lot of die-off.

 

[Reefmack]

Never assume the rock is fully cured - after a day in the tank start testing for a few days to be sure, before adding any life at all!

Test test test! And the same after adding every new fish!

 

[Conched]

To really jump into this thread and discuss cured vs uncured rock could take pages of typing from each participant. There are tons of variables that need to be considered to respond. I will give it a shot, but please realize I would only be able to touch on a small piece of the puzzle. There are books written on this.

Here are just a few of the many possible variables.

1. Using cured live rock and starting up a new tank.

2. Adding uncured live rock and starting a new tank.

3. Adding cured rock to an established tank.

One would really need to understand how the live rock fits in to the overall big picture as being used as part of the biological filtration of the complete system.

Let's look at two different scenarios.

Take an established (1 year old) 65 gallon aquarium with say 65 to 80 pounds of live rock. You could add a pound or two of uncured live rock and the bio load added by any die off would be easily absorbed by the system.

Brand new 65 gallon tank 1 -2 months old with 30 pounds of live rock. Add another 30 pounds of uncured live rock and the bio load might be more than the established bacteria colony could handle. Would likely cause an ammonia spike.

It is the die off, in and on the rock, that has everything to do with the curing process.

Curing live rock is not the same thing as cycling a new tank. These are two completely different procedures but are often done at the same time.

Irrespective of wether you think the rock is cured or not, the water test will tell the tale.

I realize what I have said is pretty watered down. In the end I would say if you are a new aquarist than you should follow the advice listed in this forum for setting up and cycling a new tank.

:winner: Water testing trumps all.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

+1 - great feedback guys !

+1 Irrespective of wether you think the rock is cured or not, the water test will tell the tale. - :winner: Water testing trumps all

 

[Reefmack]

Water testing will definitely tell if the rock is fully cured or not.

Note - getting no ammonia or nitrites (or nitrates) with only dead base rock used doesn't mean the tank is ready! Dead rock is dead - no life, no bacteria and not ready for cuc, fish, or corals till the rock has had time to be loaded with bacteria - best accomplished by adding a bit of live rock to get the correct SW bacteria into the tank, and a deli shrimp to rot and get the bacteria multiplying on the dead rock.

 

[BigAl07]

Wow! I gotta say some well written stuff up there

I'm of the mind-set where I "usually" play it safe more often than not. I've done it with CURED live rock, Raw fresh uncured live rock, Base Rock with live rock seeding it (9 to 1 ratio) and then I've done it with a new tank with SOME live rock and adding more Live here and there.

I can tell you (probably have #'s in my note book) that adding some "Green/Fresh" Live Rock to a new tank even that has some live rock will cause some degree of ammonia to be indicated on the test. How much depends on MANY factors but I was able to prove this on several occasions when I was building my first REEF tank on a budget.

If the rock is FULLY cured, transported ASAP in water then the amount of "Die-Off" is indeed minimal and would be your best "Kick-Start" for a cycle. As noted Curing and Cycling are not the same thing. I wasn't there to see it first hand but was "discussing" a 60g Cube that was set up here locally about 4 months ago. He used fully CURED live rock that had been sitting in a SW tank for 6 months with nothing in it. Nothing was added to the tank food-wise (not live stock) and since no food added, no fish pooping there was nothing for the bacteria to feed upon. This guy was told by another reefer "Cured Rock" has all the bacteria on it so you can start stocking your tank after the first week. Just test and if you get no Ammonia you're good to go. That's exactly what he did. 60g Cube tank, 80lbs of VERY nice looking CURED Live Rock and 2" sand bed or dry sand. 1 week no ammonia so he added 6 Chromis and 6 PJ Cardnials. All is good the next day and he's admiring his new creation. The next night he notices some heavy breathing but didn't really know it was an indication of a pending situation. The next morning he has a couple of fish dead, all are breathing hard and at the water's surface literally gasping. Ammonia poisoning. I didn't realize it would happen so quickly but that was a LOT of stock to add at one time. Fortunately he had someone local who took the fish, he added the "Deli Shrimp" to feed the cycle and in about 3 weeks he did his first WC and started re-stocking. The rock was indeed CURED but in some ways it was no longer "LIVE".


Here are my own personal definitions which I go by (may not be technically correct but they keep me out of hot water usually)

Cured means that most of the living organisms that die off shortly after harvesting from the ocean are gone and the rock is healthy and ready to go into the tank.

Cycled means the tank/rock is fully colonized with beneficial bacteria and ready to take on some degree of Bio-Load from the live-stock.

There are so many variables that indeed some of us could type all day long and still not cover half the possibilities. What I like to see is taken the time to at least TRY to cycle the tank when it's new. If the rock is FULLY cured, from an established tank and loaded with bacteria and you assume it's not cycled and try it.. the worse thing is you're going to waste a couple of deli shrimp, do a couple of extra water tests, and add a week or so to your initial stocking. Is that really THAT bad? Inversely if it's assumed to be cured & colonized and it's not and you stock it....you have yourself a handful of BAD coming your way full speed ahead. For me and anyone I help we always assume the rock isn't colonized and add the deli shrimp and test test test!

 

[Reefmack]

Great post Al and very informative! I agree with the cured vs. cycled rock. That "cycled" rock is the optimum choice, and is probably what some of us have been lucky enough to start tanks with. It's too bad that rock suppliers don't refer to "cycled rock" rather than just "cured" or "fully cured". There's obviously a world of difference between the two. Testing for a few days will help determine that, and as you said adding fish slowly is key. Even with cycled rock the bacteria still need time to catch up - adding 12 fish at once, even with cycled rock, was WAY too much bio-load for ANY rock to catch up with quickly!

 

[Shamus]

This is a great thread and has a bunch of information from some experienced people!

I guess I have one question regarding adding rock to an already established tank (not that I'm planning on doing it in the near future, but once my coral exceeds what I have in the tank, I imagine I would think about doing something like this in the distant future). What's the best to add? I would assume fully cured transported in water to minimize die-off. And I'd also assume that a small amount at a time is the best way to go. Would it be like adding any livestock - additional ammonia/waste in the tank added and patiently wait and test to make sure the additional load can be handled (or is this a naive assumption)? Do people typically cure/test/seed with bacteria in a separate tank to ensure that the rock to be added is also loaded with bacteria before adding to the DT (I imagine this would be a safe, practice but would be curious to hear what others have done in terms of adding rock to an already established tank)? My LFS sells cured live rock, but when I started my tank, I made sure to kickstart the cycle with a deli shrimp (didn't have a noticeable large spike in ammonia but was confident that I threw a nitrogen source to get those beneficial bacteria growing - had some great advice from members on this thread to do such that!).

Great thread Glenn! I imagine this would be very helpful to newbies as well.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

+1 Great post Al and very informative!

Allen - Thanks for being active in the RSM Club - your wisdom & experience is much appericated.

Thanks to everyone who has replied - great stuff - I know it will help lots of new RSM owners, many 1st time swt owners & with tax time rebates coming soon, I am sure lots more to come !

Steve- I have some ideas, but will let others that have done it before, suggest more ideas on adding LR to an established tank.

 

[BigAl07]

Steve are you talking about adding some NEW Live Rock to an established tank?

If YES then it's best to add in small amounts (in proportion to existing LR).

If NO then you can put it all in the DT and seed it with one small piece of LR.

I've never "Seeded" Live Rock in a separate tank but I've CURED it in a separate container. The reason for that is when curing you get all kinds of "GOOP" and honestly I don't want the SMELL (OMG the smell) in my living room. Curing rock smells like death with rotten eggs mixed in!

 

[Shamus]

Thanks Al - I meant adding it to an already established tank. Small doses and slowly (like livestock) seems like the best suggestion. I would also assume that since you're adding rock, you're losing water volume. Has anyone who has added live rock to an established tank found it more difficult to keep parameters in check? I'm assuming that weekly water changes will help everything out no matter what the volume, but since smaller amounts of water means potentially bigger problems if things go astray, is this something to consider as well?

Thanks for the answer Al!

 

[Reefmack]

I once replaced a good portion of my top rock (maybe 10 lbs.) with cured rock from a local LFS and had no problems seen in testing. Uncured rock may be a different story with the die-off. I've never heard of anyone shipping rock in water, so I'm not sure if any do that? I've seen it shipped in wet newspaper, but not water - the water would add a lot to shipping charges.

I used the rock I removed to start a small 9 gallon tank.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

a new article I found today ... on Cycling a tank, though might help someone:

Cycling - Patience, Patience, Patience

www.asira.org - Cycling

I like have always liked the Asira Org Coral Care Guide/Site, today I found the above link & though I share it in this thread.
www.asira.org - Coral Care