Another one of my dumb questions!!

[Uslanja]

Good morning all! We have a 23 gallon tank sitting on a big old wooden office desk. We don't use the desk for much anymore other than to enjoy our tank on. (Seems that since we came down with this "reef disease" we don't bring work home as much as we used to, we just enjoy our hobby!) Anyway, here is my next dumb question. We are currently using 2 HOBs, one for a fuge with cheato and the other to hide our heater as well as an option for filtering media if we desire. But HOBs have their downside. So, has anyone ever placed a fuge next to their display tank with the water levels in both tanks being equal, but use a siphon (similar to an HOB overflow box) to draw water into the fuge and then a pump to return it to the display? We can see all types of potential problems with flooding etc. but wonder if anyone has tried it and what results they achieved? Also, we're open to hearing your ideas about how we might go forward and give this concept a try. (We've been thinking of tearing out the carpeting anyway!)

Thanks for your time and ideas!

 

[GrendelPrime]

if both tanks are an equal height i would imagine getting a syphon would be tough to do, i would think 1 of the only options would be to have 2 pumps of equil flow pumping from the fuge to display then the other pump blowing the water back to the display, but as u know if 1 of the pumps craps the bed ur in trouble, im sure i stated what u already know but figured i would say it anyway..is there anyway u would be able to build a shelf above the display? and by the way i was reading the 23 build and i absolutly love the tank

 

[Uslanja]

Hi GrendelPrime! We could always go with a fuge under the desk but wanted to keep it up where its easier for us to enjoy and we do have some extra room on the desk top for another small aquarium. Never thought of building it above the 23! Nice idea, I think we'll need to look into that option! This is another example of where we didn't think this one through completely! Never considered adding a fuge to the 23 and obviously we're now at that point. We should have started with two new tanks and drilled for a closed loop/circuit! Oh oh! The boss is going to put the brakes on my new idea, better not mention it just yet!!

 

[Martian]

A siphon and one pump is way safer than trying to match 2 pumps. Failure of either pump gives you a flood.
One pump and 2 siphons is pretty bulletproof as long as each siphon can handle the same volume as the pump can push.

 

[Eric]

There is no way to equal out two pumps or a pump and a siphon perfectly, it's next to impossible even if you get them close eventually one will be faster/slower than the other and cause floods or other issues.

I would get a fuge tank that is taller than your DT drill it on the side and install a little homeade overflow box and pump water from the dt to the fuge and let it overflow back into the DT.

 

[DaveK]

Here is the thing. You could do what Eric suggests, or with something similar. However, you have a 23 gal tank, which is not very large, so adding a large refugium is not very cost effective. In other words, you'll spend a lot of time, effort, and money on the project, but your still left with a 23 gal tank.

I recommend that you either stick with what you have and enjoy it, or go with a much larger tank where it's really worth having a sump and/or refugium.

 

[Martian]

Sorry, I have to disagree with Eric. One tank higher than the other CAN cause overflows. 2 tanks at the same height (which is what you want to set up, just with different names) linked with a siphon type tube can NOT overflow. As long as the pump is not too powerful (which you wouldn't want for your refugium flow anyway) you will not get an overflow. We used to join 2 tanks that way with a clear tube and fish could swim from tank to tank through the "raised swimway". You would need to screen the siphon tubes to stop that and protect your refugium. A siphon tube (with no air in it!!!) between 2 tanks at the same level is auto levelling for the water in both tanks, as good as an overflow but without the risk of overflow since the flow can go both ways as required. If in doubt try it with a couple of glasses of water and a flexible tube, add water to one glass and they both level out, remove water and they still level out.

 

[Eric]

Sorry, I have to disagree with Eric. One tank higher than the other CAN cause overflows. 2 tanks at the same height (which is what you want to set up, just with different names) linked with a siphon type tube can NOT overflow. As long as the pump is not too powerful (which you wouldn't want for your refugium flow anyway) you will not get an overflow. We used to join 2 tanks that way with a clear tube and fish could swim from tank to tank through the "raised swimway". You would need to screen the siphon tubes to stop that and protect your refugium. A siphon tube (with no air in it!!!) between 2 tanks at the same level is auto levelling for the water in both tanks, as good as an overflow but without the risk of overflow since the flow can go both ways as required. If in doubt try it with a couple of glasses of water and a flexible tube, add water to one glass and they both level out, remove water and they still level out.

Disagree all you want, these type setups fail all the time they are more headache then they are worth, if you get air in the tube and the pump is still going that's a flood, there are a lot of problems with a system like this and fish are not going to swim back and fourth through the tube, now if you wanted to drill a straight through on both tank and connect them that;s a different story.

 

[Uslanja]

Good day! Thanks for all the responces, it is a big help getting ideas! We didn't think we would want to install a fuge on such a small tank so we hadn't planned on drilling during the initial planning stage. Sort of late now but wish we had done that! We thought we had planned everything well, but apparently not. We also thought that a "J" tube, or two, would be able to support enough siphon if the return pump was small enough, but then the flood potential also seems like a very real possibility. We were thinking of the fuge just being one tank without any baffles. If we installed a baffle in the fuge to limit the volume of potential flood water and we ran THE 23 at a lower water level to hold any excess water from the fuge, well then there wouldn't be very much of a water column in THE 23, maybe 9 inches at best.

Our real goal is to have a fuge with some cheato as well as the ability to mechanically filter the water to remove suspended particulate if we desire. The two HOB`s provide that but they are also creating bubbles in the water column that we would like to eliminate.

We have two HOB to address. We have read where folks have changed the impeller in the AC110 to an AC70 impeller to significantly reduce water flow. We have noticed that the AC70 impeller has a different part number than the AC110 so we are not sure if it will in fact work. Guess we could acquire one and try it anyway. Anyone know for sure if this is in fact possible?

We could remove the second HOB, but it holds the heater and offers mechanical filtration potential. But what would we replace it with. One thought we had is to replace it with a canister filter that would need regular cleaning to ensure that debris doesn't collect for long periods and drive the nitrate levels up. But then we lose the ability to hide the heater. We believe canister filters operate under pressure so a secure seal would be required. Does anyone know of a way to place a heater inside a canister filter? Also, canister filters return water via a return line that discharges below the water line so we think that would address the bubble issue.

Of course that takes us back to our original thought; is there a way to modify the HOB returns to eliminate the bubbles?

Either way, THE 23 is a great little tank that is certainly bringing us allot of enjoyment and part of the fun is overcoming the challenges that we encounter. The search continues for a solution and your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

 

[Uslanja]

Here is a photo of our AC110 with the usual modifications to allow it to be used as a HOB fuge. We have a "Dymax Robot LED Clip Light" on it for lighting and set on a timer to run opposite of our tank lighting. There is a piece of cheato in there that rotates in the water flow (we understand that to be desirable?). We are happy with the AC110 as a fuge but would like to eliminate the water bubbles that are created by the return flow dropping into the water column. The real problem isn't the bubbles in the water column but that the bubbles stick all over our macros and rock. We find that to be unsightly.

 

[GrendelPrime]

is there anyway u can place some live rock where the water from the filter is entering the tank?

 

[glampka]

The bubble problem is no doubt the result of the water cascading back into the tank. Can you raise the water level in the tank any so that it covers the bottom of the return more? I have some thoughts that I'll draw up & send to you.

 

[GrendelPrime]

thats why i figured if u can place rock where the water is cascading back into the tank it would eliminate the splash

 

[Uslanja]

You're absolutely correct in that it is the agitation at the water surface where the return water enters that is causing the problem. As the discharge enters the surface water is rolling back into itself and creating bubbles. We have the tank level as high as it will go, it's right over the bottom of the top plastic trim. Another 1/4 inch and it will over flow. One of our thoughts is to glue some type of rigid plastic in the discharge area and create a closed tube or chute that goes down below the water surface to prevent it from rolling back over itself. I hope that is somewhat understandable, its hard to describe but easy to witness. We also thought of cutting the discharge chute area back to cause the water to enter at a 90 degree angle to the water surface. But that might make it allot worse.

I sent my email to you glampka, looking forward to seeing your drawing!

 

[SecretAgent]

Ha! Eric and I was just talking about this the other day....About using siphon and a pump going to a sump

On the 16th I set up a pico and have a sump under the desk the pico is set up on. I am using a very large goldfish bowl, gallons unknown but I know its at least a 3g. I didnt want to muck up the bowl with all kinds of acrylic and such as one would have on a reg tank, so I took a round piece of acrylic and driled three holes in it in the top. One for the drain, one for the return and one for airline tubing.


So, I started the flow. The first pump I had on it was a little bigger than the one Im using now. 230gph I think. So, the dang water wouldnt ever level out in the bowl. I couldnt understand it for the life of me why the level would drop one minute and the next it would rise. It never actually overflowed mainly because I work from home and could keep an eye on it, but it would have overflowed or dropped so low that it would have eventually overflowed when the siphon broke and the pump kept pumping water in

So, I thought, the power head is surging. SO I switched to another power head. A smaller gph one. Well, thi spump seems to be doing better at keepign the water level from going up and down, but it still will creep up or down if not watched. Before the level would go up and down about every 15minutes, now it may go two days in between needing adjusting.

Mainly all I do is pinch off whichever hose is causing the change. Water filling too fast, pinch the pump hose, water drainign too fast, pinch off the drain hose until it goes back to my mark. This seems to reset the water level and it will stay that way for a while, days even.

So anyway, this is what I experienced with my setup. I could srill the bowl I suppose but I dont want to mess it up in case I tear the pico down. I want to reuse the bowl for my "catch all" for tank stuff if I ever were to tear it down.

I wouldnt know the first thing about making an overflow for it, but it was suggested to me to install a.......let me think on this one.....what was it? A float switch, thats it......a surge tank.....Thats what Im going to try

 

[Uslanja]

Hi SecretAgent! Nice point about a float switch! We were wondering if something like that could be configured somehow as a safety. Possibly to turn off the return pump if the water level reached a dangerous point. Maybe install it on the fuge and if the water level dropped too far it would somehow kill the power to the pump to prevent overflowing the display? Is the surge tank a concept that you came up with or is there more info somewhere that could possibly enlighten us?

 

[BigJay]

The easiest way would to be to put a chamber in the back of one of the tanks so the same tank flows into the chamber and you can install a bulkhead for the second tank to drain in. Return to both tanks out of this chamber. This will allow both tanks display area to be at the same level. This can be accomplished by just cutting some acrylic and putting it place with silicone. THe chamber only needs to be a couple inches deep just enough room to slide a power head into it. Using black acrylic will hide all the working nicely. Or just buy one of the cube tanks and drill it for 2 bulkheads. If your confused let me know and I'll help you further.

 

[BigJay]

heres a how to I did on modding a 6g cube , just so you can get an idea of how it would function and how to install the bulk heads. The chamber method will mean there is very risk of overflow.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/reef-chronicles/42944-6g-nano-cube-fuge-modification.html

 

[SecretAgent]

Hey Tracy! I was discussing this with Eric....you know Eric, right? Of course you do! =) Hes the lighting guru...among other things. Anyway, this is what was suggested to me.....hope you dont mind Eric!

"Make the first pico with a wave maker, run your siphon like you have it get a float switch for the pump so it shuts off them the water in the sump gets low them kicks back on when it gets full if you can have it doing this once or twice a minute that would be sweet.

First surge tank pico "

Hes such a sweety....always thinking and always ready to help with his kind self. Smart man that Eric

 

[SecretAgent]

I have just a tube running to the sump, the a tube of the same size running back as a return via power head. The ater wouldnt regulate with the valve Im using. My guess is valve isnt precise enough to regulate the flow.

I havent had any issues with this now since using the smaller power head. I guess that made a difference in how well this control valve was working. On such small of a tank as a pico, it is noticeable as even a few drops an hour more or less makes a difference where as a bigger tank a few drops faster or slower doesnt matter.

I will have to get some pics of how mine is set up so you can see how it is running. My pico isnt riddled with all the unsightly stuff many are. I use the clear tubing of course but you cant see any of it. I suppose after a while it will be seen once stuff starts to grow in it, but doesnt matter cause the way mine is set up, it will be no time at all to either clean it or replace it. Not much there so replacing would be just as easy or cost efficient as cleaning it.