Quarantine Corals and Snails?

[Pat24601]

I thought I'd get opinions on this.

As I did detailed research on Marine Ich (e.g. reading Lee's old posts on this forum among many others), one of the things that caught my attention is that a purist/conservative strategy with regards to Marine Ich would be to quarantine ANYTHING wet, including snails and corals, for 76 days before putting in your display tank.

Obviously, neither coral nor snails can get Marine Ich, but the theory is that unless they have been in a quarantined, fishless environment for 76 days, they could have Marine Ich cysts on them and therefore you could introduce it into your tank.

It's kind of obvious that's theoretically true, but I really don't know anyone that does that. Even folks that QT fish, maybe dip their corals, but no fishless quarantine for 76 days.

What do folks think? While I doubt anyone thinks the statement is untrue, it's actually another dimension of quarantine that pretty much requires another QT tank set up separate from a fish QT tank, with pretty darn good lighting in corals case. Does anyone actually worry about that or is it such low risk that it's just not worth it even though it could theoretically happen?

 

[Uncle99]

HI Pat
Absolutely possible but like you said, risk is very low.
In 27 years I have had Ick twice, both as a result of adding a tang.
While I quarantine fish for around 21ish days, everything else went in, except for corals which I dip and double rinse.

Now for tangs, And don't get me wrong cause I love them, but they are under constant stress all the way to our fine fish stores and in the stores tanks. IMO, tangs are the most likely Carrier to our tanks, not exclusive, but up their on the risk scale....

Ick is usually easy to spot, even if we don't see spots, look for scrapes, and for panting for breathing, make sure he eats before you buy, infects the gills first...

 

[DaveK]

I have to agree with @Uncle99 on this subject. I would dip corals because they can carry their own problems such as flatworms or red bugs. With snails it's more a question of making sure you don't have any dead ones there.

Yes, tangs, especially ones like a powder blue tang, are notorious "ich magnets". I think part of this is people getting them and placing them in tanks that are way too small. Diet is another factor, since they need a lot of vegetable matter in their diet.

I'd say ich is easy to spot for the experienced reef keeper. This isn't so true if your a beginner.

 

[StirCrayzy]

Since there is some risk, ive always rinsed my CUC with tank water in a net a few times before dumping them in the tank. Since the stage crypto would be carried in on is not internal there is a chance anything loose, or loosely attached will be blown or brushed off and flushed away.
My corals are fully dipped and rinsed also for standard HHs but potentially loose cysts would also be rinsed off.
I wonder the effects of bayer dip on developing crypto cysts? i cant recall anything off hand being proven successful or not.

 

[Pat24601]

Since there is some risk, ive always rinsed my CUC with tank water in a net a few times before dumping them in the tank. Since the stage crypto would be carried in on is not internal there is a chance anything loose, or loosely attached will be blown or brushed off and flushed away.
My corals are fully dipped and rinsed also for standard HHs but potentially loose cysts would also be rinsed off.
I wonder the effects of bayer dip on developing crypto cysts? i cant recall anything off hand being proven successful or not.

That's a good protocol. I think I'll adopt it. Thanks!

Also, thanks @Uncle99 and @DaveK as well. Excellent advice as always! Exactly what I'm looking for everyone!

 

[cracker]

I like to dip & swish my corals also .

 

[StirCrayzy]

You see the hobby a little differently once youve lost a tankful of fish .

 

[Pat24601]

You see the hobby a little differently once youve lost a tankful of fish .

Ha! In my case, I only had 3 and only lost 1, but yeah.

 

[Uncle99]

Yup, now I inspect, dip, brush, rinse, inspect, dip brush rinse, use my magnifying glass, QT, yup, now I am just paranoid.
Down with crabs, down with hitchhikers of all kinds, out goes the live rock.

Funny thing though, Absolutely no fish or coral losses, no parasites or organisms so far. Everyone happy!

 

[db75Reef]

Long story made short:
- 2.5 years old tank - no issues at all; no live stock added in last 6 months;
- January 2018 - bought 2 small coral frags;
- February 2018 - 9 out of 10 fishes dead thanks to ich, some stays behind rocks, impossible to take out and create a small cycle damaging many corals;

Coming with corals or not, not sure, but nothing else was added to tank in last months except those 2 frags;

 

[Uncle99]

Ouch! That's a scary story!
Some hobbyist's believe that Ick is always available in marine systems and it is the health and strenght of the fish and living in a clean well maintained environment with little to no stress can prevent ick from infecting your fish.
Personally, I just don't know the answer to this, some yes, some no.

If it was the small frags, it's certainly a lesson for everyone, that it is possible. And that scares me as I have added about 30 corals in the last three months with a 15 minute dip in Revive, then 15 in DT water, a shake and a brush where possible, then into the DT.

9 fish lost, I am sorry to hear that.

Your right, I don't know anyone QT for 70 ish days.

 

[db75Reef]

Ouch! That's a scary story!
Some hobbyist's believe that Ick is always available in marine systems and it is the health and strenght of the fish and living in a clean well maintained environment with little to no stress can prevent ick from infecting your fish.
Personally, I just don't know the answer to this, some yes, some no.

If it was the small frags, it's certainly a lesson for everyone, that it is possible. And that scares me as I have added about 30 corals in the last three months with a 15 minute dip in Revive, then 15 in DT water, a shake and a brush where possible, then into the DT.

9 fish lost, I am sorry to hear that.

Your right, I don't know anyone QT for 70 ish days.

Honestly I never quarantine anything - I know that is difficult to quarantine each and every snail and coral for 70 days. A fancy sps wont survive 70 days in a small bucket of water with a flow pump only;
I always had ich in my tanks and sometimes see signs of it but is rather related to water / food quality or some stress (new fish introduced, etc) - never lost anything because of it;

2 weeks after all my fishes died (except a green chromis) I went to same shop from where I get the corals and bought other fishes ( i know this shop use same water circuit for fishes and corals) - including rather sensitive cleaner wrasse and copperband butterfly; All fished had couple of spots on them, but didnt panicked; After more than 2 weeks in my infested tank they are in great shape - eat like pigs (rather difficult for chelmon and cleaner wrasse) and shows no sign of ich;

Conclusion??? No idea actually, but thinking on 2 alternatives:
a - something went really wrong with water quality and immunity of my fishes dropped (still inverts and corals doing just fine).
b - I am not biologist or a specialists but thinking that the ich I "imported" with corals is somehow different from what i had in tank and fishes had lower immunity to it; This is why fishes from same shop doesnt seems to bother about it;

 

[StirCrayzy]

Sorry to hear of the loss db75.
In addition to the topic of cysts being carried in on rock and corals...
Sounds like youre already familiat with the concept that Fish can and do live with crypto parasites for their entire life and have no issues and you may never know they even have it.
These Ich parasites are animals, and without a host they die. This means, by design they should only be invasive enough to survive by keeping the host alive. Killing the host is an unfortunate side effect of their last ditch survival instincts and is counterproductive to their nature.

All it takes is stress of any type whether internal in the fish, or environmental, to create an outbreak. Like most microfauna, the population is limited by the environment they live in.
What happens is the parasites can go into survival mode and start to multiply like crazy which, in addition to the fish being weakened from the same stressor create exponential havoc.
Meanwhile the other fish are also getting these additional parasites and without intervention, cannot fight them off and most times, die. Immunity isnt really an accurate term, since a fish's immune system cant really protect it from a cyst physically entering the body and continuing on with its life cycle. It can however keep a fish entirely healthy and happy while playing host !

 

[cracker]

good point Stir, a parasite by design doesn't want to kill the host.

 

[Pat24601]

Great comments everyone!

 

[Squatch XXL]

Some hobbyist's believe that Ick is always available

I really think that a healthy reef system COULD have ich present. Too many incidences of isolated tanks suddenly erupting with Ich after years of no-change. It is possible to sterilize everything from nearly all threats, but if you have a total sterile environment in your tank does it alter the livestock's ability to fend off other more normal infections? I think stress is a large factor in breakouts. We as humans need a certain amount of bacteria in our guts to live, and I can't see fish being any different. Totally sterile is no good.

Honestly I never quarantine anything

It never hurts to q-tank fish for observation however. A few weeks never hurts if you have the space. I have NEVER gotten ich ever that I am aware of. Fresh or salt water. I will not tell anyone that my methods are good. They are not. I have been witness to many fish deaths. The biggest factor every time is that they were stressed from a move from one tank to another, and always a few weeks after the move.

I do dip coral with bayer bug killer. I don't buy coral at random either however. It can be a year in between purchases, and I do set up a q tank. I would rather treat, quarantine and observe pieces prior to introduction rather then chance having to dismantle a whole tank again. I learned the hard way. I have been without additions for over a year, and the most recent additions came from a local reef club member. I got little annoying starfish because of it. Without using a quarantine method, you are playing with statistics. The statistic is that there is a 100% chance you will get something eventually even with quarantine, but qtanks reduce the chance of pollution in the display to nearly 0% if done proper. I would think this applies to any wet critter. IF you trust your source, you can get away with it. If you are getting something that is not from an established and healthy tank, you may have a bad time.

 

[saintsreturn]

Coming late to the party, but figured i would throw in some comments.

When i built my 29, i learned a lot of lessons. So i started new with the 75g.

When i set this tank up, i used only dry rock and live sand. Rinsed them both and set up the system. I introduced the CUC and then fish that came out of the 29g.

After it became established, i started adding corals and the usual refresh of CUC as needed. I have never QT'd anything up till this point. Then one day i added some new snails and noticed i had two pieces of aptasia moving around. Turns out two things happened:

1) A snail had aptasia on it
2) one of my snails was actually a crab and it had aptasia on it.

I immediately pulled them out and scrapped them off and then returned the crab.

So now:
1) I only introduce dry rock to my system. Ever.
2) I still do not QT fish, but i watch them closely at the store and then bring them home. I start the acclimation process and add in a vitamin dose to the bag as it makes the acclimation process. This usually takes about an hour or two to complete.
3) All corals are dipped.
4) The CUC is inspected and then the shell is scrubbed lightly with a toothbrush to pull off any potential hitch hikers.

So now (please dont jinx this) I have a completely pest free tank and i have not had any issues with outside contaminants to my system. My wife hates bristle worms, so i am bristle worm free (even though i would like a few). I have missed some of the fun hitchhikers like feather dusters and the such, but i like having full control of my system more.

Up until the aptasia situation, i never messed with the CUC.

I know this isnt ich related, but i thought it worth mentioning as in this system, this process has helped me avoid most issues, to include ich.

Sailfin, black oscelar...., chromis, holden head, dottyback, and sand sifting star, have all been "visibly" ich free and healthy.

 

[Pat24601]

Coming late to the party, but figured i would throw in some comments.

When i built my 29, i learned a lot of lessons. So i started new with the 75g.

When i set this tank up, i used only dry rock and live sand. Rinsed them both and set up the system. I introduced the CUC and then fish that came out of the 29g.

After it became established, i started adding corals and the usual refresh of CUC as needed. I have never QT'd anything up till this point. Then one day i added some new snails and noticed i had two pieces of aptasia moving around. Turns out two things happened:

1) A snail had aptasia on it
2) one of my snails was actually a crab and it had aptasia on it.

I immediately pulled them out and scrapped them off and then returned the crab.

So now:
1) I only introduce dry rock to my system. Ever.
2) I still do not QT fish, but i watch them closely at the store and then bring them home. I start the acclimation process and add in a vitamin dose to the bag as it makes the acclimation process. This usually takes about an hour or two to complete.
3) All corals are dipped.
4) The CUC is inspected and then the shell is scrubbed lightly with a toothbrush to pull off any potential hitch hikers.

So now (please dont jinx this) I have a completely pest free tank and i have not had any issues with outside contaminants to my system. My wife hates bristle worms, so i am bristle worm free (even though i would like a few). I have missed some of the fun hitchhikers like feather dusters and the such, but i like having full control of my system more.

Up until the aptasia situation, i never messed with the CUC.

I know this isnt ich related, but i thought it worth mentioning as in this system, this process has helped me avoid most issues, to include ich.

Sailfin, black oscelar...., chromis, holden head, dottyback, and sand sifting star, have all been "visibly" ich free and healthy.

Very informative. Thanks!

 

[Nobbygas]

I started off with a 'clean' system. Dead Rock etc. I always dip any corals before putting them in, and from somewhere/something came Bristle Worms, Asterina Starfish and now Aipstasia.

As for Ich, I think I do have it in the tank. I did suffer one wipe-out, and then three months later another attack of 'something' (not sure if it was Ich or Velvet). During the first wipe-out I did attempt to remove all fish to a Hospital Tank, but I feel as though I actually killed more fish doing this than if I'd left them in the tank, plus to catch the fish meant a full strip down of the tank. Never doing that again.
The second attack was dealt with by using Polyplab Medic, and increasing the quantity and quality of the food. This worked. I still see the occasional 'spot'. Is it Ich or just a bit of sand the fish has picked up? I don't know, but the spots disappear within a day and the fish all look healthy.

I think one aspect of the fish diseases that is never talked about are the different strains of the parasites. I'm no expert but I reckon that some strains are more 'powerful' than other strains. Nature being nature I'm pretty sure that the parasites are not all the same strain. Could things like Polylab Medic work against the weaker strains but not the stronger ones, hence people like me saying Medic worked, while others claim it is just snake oil because it did nothing for their outbreak, which just may have been a stronger strain of the parasite?