HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient tank ?

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Dear All

Constantly we read : "you need this XXX level of Ca and Alk if your tank is a Low Nutrient tank, but if it is a high nutrient tank you need these YYYY level of Ca and Alk".

I would like to know what are the differences between a low and a high nutrient tank, or how do you define or what are the parameter that define a LOW and a HIGH nutrient tank.

Thanks
Daniel
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Randy Holmes Farley "Water Paramaters" has always been my standard - if this helps any... though I am not sure it applies to a "high & low" nutrient tank

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

RHF_WaterParam_zps88e56e28.jpg


for anyone new... out outside the US Randy is highly respected... here is a bit about him

Randy Holmes-Farley has a BA in chemistry and biology from Cornell University (1982) and a PhD in chemistry from Harvard University (1986). He has 57 patents, numerous publications and several awards in a variety of chemical fields. In 1992 he helped start a pharmaceutical company (GelTex Pharmaceuticals). It was eventually bought by Genzyme where he now has the title of Vice President, Chemical Research. Randy is also the co-inventor of two commercial pharmaceuticals (Renagel and WelChol).
 
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Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

That is a loaded question. And I think you are leaving out one key piece here, coral species - what you have and what water parameters they need.

The way I see it is that you would want to have Alk, Ca, and nutrient levels based on the coral species you have in the tank. It seems like a key component to add to your question.

What are you defining as nutrients? Phosphate and nitrate only. Or do nutrients include carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and micro-nutrients (those nutrients that corals need to grow). The reason why I am asking and I think this is important, your question is basically getting at wanting to know what levels you should target for high nutrient vs low nutrient tanks and this ties back into what the needs are for your corals.

I think you will get some varied opinions on what is considered a high vs low nutrient tank and what those levels are. And how those levels correlate to alk and Ca levels will also solicit varied opinions.

It might be easier if maybe trying to understand components of this first. Some coral species hard stoney corals (sps) do better in low nutrient systems, and these are also the types of corals that need higher levels of Alk and Ca because they need to take those in to build their hard skeletons to grow. Other corals, soft corals, can tolerate higher nutrient systems, but they don't need the higher levels of Alk and Ca because they don't take in as much to live or survive, they don't have hard skeletons, thus can do fine w/lower levels of Alk and Ca. What these measured levels are may somewhat vary depending on who you talk to or what article you read.

There are some things that we should keep in mind though, in many ways we try to match the levels in our tanks to the natural environment (and in some instances try to push those boundaries a little bit). What is good to know, are the levels in the natural environment and at what levels sea life no longer can tolerate. That way we know what the boundaries are and what we have to play with in between. Sea life will have a range that they will thrive at and where they will tolerate to survive. There will be a range that they can thrive in and and on either end of this range they will tolerate levels. And then there will be the extreme levels in which sea life will start to die at. Example: Think of it as a bell shaped curve, at the highest peak they will thrive, lower at each end they will tolerate, and the very lowest points they start to die at. You can have any parameter along the bottom axis (e.g. Alk, Ca, Nitrate, etc.). Yes, even nitrate, some corals assimilate nitrate into both polyp and zooxanthellae by direct uptake from the water, so having none at all is not beneficial and can cause death just like it does at extremely high levels of nitrate.

---- examples of natural environ parameters ----
Typical Surface Ocean Value:
Calcium 420 ppm
Alkalinity 2.5 meq/L, 7 dKH, 125 ppm CaCO3 equivalents
Salinity 34-36 ppt, sg = 1.025-1.027
Temperature Variable
pH 8.0-8.3 (can be lower or higher in lagoons)
Magnesium 1280 ppm
Phosphate 0.005 ppm
Nitrate Variable (typically below 0.1 ppm)
Nitrite Variable (typically below 0.0001 ppm)
Ammonia Variable (typically <0.1 ppm)

From literature:
Nitrate - many studies have shown that at higher levels (~40ppm) there are toxic effects to corals. Many critter can tolerate 20ppm, especially fish. Recommend that nitrate levels in corals aquariums should be well below 10ppm and preferably much lower or undetectable on standard test kits for tank w/sps corals. Depending on the LPS or softies you have you may want a range between 10-20ppm (on the lower end for LPS on the higher end for softies). Having mixed coral tanks can get challenging, feeding corals (LPS/softies) can help to keep them living in tanks that are keep in lower nutrient tanks, 5ppm to zero.

Alkalinity - Anything from 2.5-4 meq/L (7-11 dKh) is acceptable. Actually there is no exact target you should shoot for, until you get more advanced. For the most part, as long as you're in that range, you are providing a good environment for your tank's critters. It is also important to know that Alk also affects the amount of calcium and other trace elements that can remain in solution. Higher alkalinity values than that range, and you can run into problems with precipitation. This excess will begin to accumulate on equipment, forming a crust or shell on things like heaters and pumps. In extreme cases, you can even get what appears to be snow in the tank's water column or cloudy water. Lower values will cause instability in your tank's pH level. This may result in constantly lower or higher pH readings. Or even worse, wild swings in the tank's pH. This causes stress on all tank inhabitants leading to a slow demise, disease, or eventually death. If you have a high bioload of corals, you may want to keep the Alk levels of 3.2-4 meq/L.

Calcium - Anything in the range of 380-450 ppm is good. Again, until you get more advanced (especially when trying to maintain SPS corals), any Calcium value in that range is acceptable. Again with more bioload you may want to consider maintaining a minimum of 400ppm, and ideally at levels of 450ppm or higher for sps tanks.

Phosphate - Phosphate values as close to zero as possible are ideal. The problem is, most commonly available test kits out there don't do a really good job of testing true phosphate levels in the tank. Phosphate is always present in the tank though. It's simply a matter of keeping these values as low as possible. The main problem with monitoring phosphate levels is that the majority of phosphate in your tank are consumed by the algae, and therefore are bound into the actual algae itself. This means that most test kits will not take the bound up phosphate into consideration. (I.e. You can get readings near zero, but still high phosphate content in your tank. The majority of it, inside the algae). Best to harvest the algae and get it out of the system.
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Thank you both !!! I really appreciate your time posting all that data.

I would like to summarize Oxi posting. In other words you know if you have a Low or High nutrient tank based on your phosphate and nitrates levels, correct ?

Or this is too simplistic?

Daniel
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Depends on how simplistic you want. Low nutrient tanks tend to have little to no reading of nitrate or phosphate, yes.

Are you trying to achieve a low nutrient tank?
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Depends on how simplistic you want. Low nutrient tanks tend to have little to no reading of nitrate or phosphate, yes.

Are you trying to achieve a low nutrient tank?

Thanks Oxy.

No, I am not trying to achieve a low or high nutrient tank. Is my curiosity to learn more. My tank is doing OK as it is today. I have not measured Nitrate in weeks but I measured on Friday PO4 and Ca with my 2 new Hanna Checkers (still waiting the Alk one). I got them because I saw in one of your posting you are using it. So, independently of the good reviews I was reading all these months, I though that if Oxy is using them, then they are really good. And I order the 3 most important (Ca, PO4, Alk).

To my surprise, and after 2 tests, I found that my PO4 levels are (0.18-0.16 ppm) and Ca 417 ppm. I have done a lot of reading around the PO4 levels and some of the best tanks in USA run with PO4 in the order of the 1.0+ . But also many others are doing great in the order of 0.1 - 0.06 . All these readings pushed me to try to understand what type of tank I have in this moment (low or high nutrient). It was not clear for me how you define one or another. And as always, in RS, with members that have a lot of experience and knowledge on the subject matter, I was able to find an answer.

I am the kind of guy that do not like to repair what it is not broken. My PO4 are high (0.18 ppm) based on what it is recommended for SPS tanks (0.05 ppm), but things looks OK and I will let it in that way. Neither I have algae in the tank. Only a patch of 1sq" of red ciano that I discover yesterday. The tank is young, really young yet, ~7 months old. This is the second time I have a patch like that and with just reducing the food for a week, was gone.

Bottom line, I am starting to understand the concept of a LOW and a HIGH nutrient tank. And most important where I am with my tank.

Thank you Oxy !!!!!

Daniel
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

In my humble opinion, Ca, Alk, and phosphate are extremely important to monitor in sps systems. And since I'm purposely pushing my fish bio-load on my 3 year old tank and I'm adding extra foods for the corals, I'm watching my phosphate levels. I'm also monitoring/dosing potassium b/c my tank is eating it up (it seems like not all systems do this).

Food you add to the tank=phosphates.

I know it was a long post above, I should have provided BLUF first, then went into the deeper dive of info. But, knowing it was you asking, Dan, I figured you would like more info then less. I also like to get into the weeds when reading up on items relating to my tank. A simple answer to my question(s) always produces more questions :smirk:

As with most things in this hobby, thoughts on how to keep our tanks have evolved. A decade ago what was thought needed to keep tanks is not necessarily popular opinion today. In addition, researchers are learning more about corals and their environments, which in turn is informing home reef keeping. Why do I bring this up, b/c there are a lot of articles on the web with different recommendations, always look at the date when something was posted/written and what research they cite. This is helpful to figure out if the info provided is sound, recent and up to date, or not.

Here are some interesting :read: if you want to understand it a little more.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/chemistry
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/finding-the-right-balance-of-nutrients-for-corals
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3047
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/fish-poop-is-great-coral-food
 

Lexinverts

Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is Magnesium. My understanding is that if you keep your Magnesium 1300-1450-ish, it helps keep your Ca and Alk levels more stable. I dose about 7 ml of Mg solution (BRS mix) to my tank every day with my dosing pump, and that keeps my Mg around 1400. My Alk is around 10 dKH and my Ca is around 400 ppm. I also am dosing a little Acropower every week.

I guess I have a low nutrient tank, since my Phosphate and Nitrate are usually undetectable with the API kits.

Oxy, why do you dose potassium? I haven't heard of that before. How much do you use, and what levels do you shoot for?
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

This is starting to be interest.

Magnesium: In my 1 years and couple of months with full SPS tanks (~7 months with the RSM 250 and before with the 12G tank) every time I have measured Mag it was always in the recommended range value of the table that Glenn posted on post #2. It looks like, independently of my high load of SPS, the weekly ~10-15% water change I do is enough to keep it in the recommended levels. Bottom line, I have not dosed for Magnesium, as of today.

Potassium: As you mentioned before Oxy. I loved your long answer and thank you again for it. It has provided the full info. As you, short answers only trigers in myself more questions. But, as Lexinverts requested, can you extend more on this topic concerning POTASSIUM.

Sorry Oxy that you have to write more (LOL), but we need to learn from the experts and experienced reefers and you are one of those.

Cheers
Daniel
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

When I began to have initial issues with my blue monti, it was suggested to look at my potassium levels. At that point I was doing ~4g water change a week. At that time I saw a drop in the K level, which varied from week to week, but went from ~392-410 to ~362-368 in a weeks time. I started dosing. Once I bumped up my water changes to ~8-9g a week I didn't have as much of a drop in K. But, I find that if I relax on the water changes, which sometimes I do b/c I can't always get to them every Sunday, then I start to see a drop in K again and thus I am dosing to keep it up (I already dose Ca, Alk & Mg). Basically potassium, like other elements, is a color enhancer for corals. The levels I shoot for are recommended by red sea, since that is the salt I use, 390-410ppm. The test kit and supplement are red sea brand as well. This is not something that has to be dosed and I only recommend doing so if you really need to.

I also use acropower. My Ca, Alk & Mg are also BRS brand, which doesn't add any additional elements to their solutions, so there isn't a concern or over dosing any additional elements to the tank.
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta


Interesting this about Potassium.....

You have touched something i was reading last weekend and thinking if it will be good to try...... "supplements to improve SPS colors".

Have you tried or have first hands references of the Coral Color program from Red Sea. Kits to measure and supplements are not expensive (~$70 both). I also went to the LFS to see if they have it. They do have the supplements, but not the Kits to measure the different elements because they sold only 1 kit set in months. But they had the aminoacid (A+B) supplements and I came with those instead of the color programs supplements. I am testing them.

Oxy

Have you tried the Red Sea Color program or have first hand references about it ?

One More.....

You have seen my tank in many pictures: Do you think I have a need to try the color program ? Just think if my tank is your tank. Will you do it ?

Cheers
Daniel

PS: Last week, when I told my son (another reefer for the last 2 years) the same last question his answer was..... "Dad, are you crazy, stop bothering those corals and do not change anything in your tank or you will ruin it".......

The difference with my son and myself is that he studied economy and I have been doing lab research almost all my professional life..... and I keep asking myself all the time.. " and if I try this, can it be better?"... LOL (the researcher is in my genes) LOL
 

Oxylebius

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

I would not dose anything that you are not testing for.

Your tank is very colorful, so no I would not start dosing these extra elements. Give your self time to really get the feel of your tank. If your curiosity get the best of you, then pick up this test kit: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/red-sea-reef-colors-pro-multi-test-kit-i2-k-fe-1.html. And then go a good couple of months testing these levels and always comparing it back to your tank water right after a water change. Ideally, your water changes will keep the levels where you need them to be. You will see fluctuation b/c the coral will be taking it in. These levels don't have to stay constant, but if you see major declines then consider dosing. Test an hour before a water change and test a half hour after a water change. This gives you a starting point for levels in your tank and an end point that can be compared back, to determine what was used in the interim.

I have not tried Red Sea's color program, nor do I want to at this time. Too many testing kits. Too much work. I believe RS does recommend very high levels on each of these elements. I prefer to add a little of acropower mid-week between water changes instead. Something that I don't have to test.

It was sorta a fluke that it I started to test for potassium. And I'm not convinced adding K did much, my blue monti is a grey monti now. I added way too many corals this spring and introduced one that my monties aren't happy with or introduced one that is competing with the monties for some element. Either way I'm not really bent on figuring it all out right now.

Once you look into the red sea supplements more, you will find the contradiction: the article says add K for blues/purples and red sea has potassium & boron for red colors - :ponder2:
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Thank you Oxy for your point of view. I will take it !!!!

As you mentioned, there is no need for me to do any change now or any experimentation. I will continue testing for Ca, Alk, PO4 and Mag. And doing my water changes with Petco Ocean Water, that the tank enjoyed from the start. Will also continue testing these A+B aminoacids solutions from Red Sea but not daily. Will be every other day and half of the suggested concentrations.

Daniel.....it is time to relax and enjoy the tank.

My curiosity will be satisfied by reading more on the matter and learning to be prepare for unexpected changes and have an idea of the action I need to take.

Nice discussion today..........Thank you all !!! and a special thank you to you Oxy for your time.

Daniel
 

RedSeaKev

RS Sponsor
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Ok Folks, is it time for me to throw a spanner in the works and give you the following recommendations ?

After the extensive research (5 years) Red Sea scientists who developed the Reef Care Program recommend the following parameters, it was then that our Red Sea and Coral Pro salt had slight formulation changes to reflect the following.

Foundation Element levels for Low Nutrition and Rapid Growth Programs @ 35PPT.​

Low Nutrition

• Calcium 430 ppm
• Magnesium 1310 ppm
• Alkalinity 8.2
• No3 0.25ppm
• Po4 0.02 ppm
Rapid Growth
• Calcium 465ppm
• Magnesium 1390
• Alkalinity 12.6
• No3 1 to 2 ppm
• Po4 0.08 ppm


Food for thought ? or should I say parameters for thought ?
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

Thank you Kev for your answer. It is very useful !!!!

Last Sunday, when I measured my tank parameters they were:

PO4= 0.18/0.16 (2 measurements )
NO3= 0.25 - 0 ppm....but more with a test color nearby the 0.25 ppm
Mag: not measured
Alk: 10 dkh
Ca: 417 ppm
Salinity: 1025
Temperature= 79-80

I know that based on standards the PO4 level is high. This week I feed the fish every other day. Tonight, before feeding, I will take a water sample and run all the tests again.

I will post later references to an article that brings to discussion that high PO4 works for many tanks .

What do you think of my levels ?

Today I do not have any visual negative effect in my corals. I do not want to chase numbers, but I like to know others comments.

Kev.....this is my tank, see last pages for recent pictures

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...lub/91241-daniels-tank-upgrade-rsm-250-a.html

Cheers
Daniel

PO4 info link

http://www.reefs.com/magazine/15981...g-ix-test-kits-chasing-numbers-phosphate.html

A recent thread at Boston Reeferrs. Heated discussion ..... :)

http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?143384-Pshhhhhhhhhhhh!-Low-Nutrient
 

Danreef

Well-Known Member
Re: HIGH and LOW Nutrient tanks definition....or...What is a LOW and HIGH Nutrient ta

I was tire tonight to run all the tests. But did PO4 and still is the same 0.17 ppm.

Well, I feed the corals and fish. They wanted to jump out of the water and bite my fingers...LOL.

Daniel
 
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