Can't figure out why ph is low

SeaLover

Member
Anyone have any input on this. My water params are ph=7.8 or 7.9. Calcium is 450. alk is a little low. Mag is normal. Is 7.8 a bad ph to have? For a long time it was always around 8.0 to 8.1ish. i have been buffering every day and it will raise the ph to like 7.9 and then the next day its right back down to 7.8. Is this normal? What gives? Btw I dont dose with anything I dont test for. I use RO/DI water and Tropic Marin salt. I use a ph elec tester thing.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
First, make sure you pH meter is calibrated correctly. If it's off, you may have been adding buffers when you didn't need to.

Second, are you using and additives or supplements or a calcium reactor or a kalk reactor?

Third, is you tank getting enough water circulation and gas exchange and the room getting enough air circulation to purge it of CO2? To see if there is a problem here, make syre the top of the tank is open, open a window, and see if you pH goes up.

Lastly, what is the pH of your newly mixed SW when you do a water change? If it is in a normal range 8.1 - 8.3 or so, you problem may be that the existing water in your system is out of balance, and you might need to make much larger partial water changes till you change all your water.

Also, how is your live stock doing? If it's all looking great, and feeding well, you may be doing more harm than good by trying to change pH. This assumes it's only off a little.
 

SeaLover

Member
tomorrow I will re calibrate the meter. I have a koralia #4 and a korlia #1. I think I have pretty good flow. As for the room getting enouh circulation; how would I know? Its still a little chilly in Indiana. Do I need to open a window and see what happens? I will check the ph of the water change water when i do the water change tomorrow.

The live stock I would say ios doing rather well. Mushrooms are having baby mushrooms like crazy. And my frogspawn has about 30 heads on it. Its masssive. Xenias spreaing like crazy.

Yea something has to be up. Because i have buffered the water every day for like the last 2 weeks and it hasnt raised that much. I do dilute the solution pretty well.

I do not add any additives other than Kent Marine Calcium. And kent part A and B when needed. And buffer. Nothing else.
 

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Short answer. You have to much CO2 from some place, unless it is a meter issue. It means squat what your Alk is or anything else for that matter. If the pH is dropping like yours is it is CO2. Meaning, High or Low Alk means nothing. The pH will drop if it is CO2. You can not buffer out CO2 with a buffer or by raising the Alk. Unless it is a short fix by adding something like Kalk which eats up CO2. When you add other carbonate buffers they actually add CO2, especially baking soda. However, the CO2 from the buffer is not the issue. It is more on the grounds of Dave's post on aeration and trapped house CO2 or you are generating to much CO2 in the bed from chemical reactions from uneatean foods or a overloaded tank. etc..
 

prow

Well-Known Member
well i did not have much to add to daves post;). while i agree with CO2 and low ph, if the waters buffering capacity is very low (low alk levels) then organic acids will accumulate and a lowered ph will result. however, that is not what i am thinking. i can not help but think an imbalance has resulted from the use of a buffer even though its stated the alk is low. i would still check the alk. a high alk will off set a low ph some, but a low alk will potentiate the effects of elevated CO2 (compared with normal alk levels). a 7.8-7.9 ph level is fine, esp if the alk level is on the high side. i am expecting his alk to be high given a ph swing of 0.10 and the fact he has dosed buffer daily for two weeks. he is already recalibrating his monitor to validate the ph results. only thing missing is the actual alk level.
 

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
well i did not have much to add to daves post.

I don't ether but have lots of issues with yours :)

. i would still check the alk. a high alk will off set a low ph some, but a low alk will potentiate the effects of elevated CO2 (compared with normal alk levels). a 7.8-7.9 ph level is fine, esp if the alk level is on the high side. i am expecting his alk to be high given a ph swing of 0.10 and the fact he has dosed buffer daily for two weeks. he is already recalibrating his monitor to validate the ph results. only thing missing is the actual alk level.

I don't know how many times Randy and I have to explain this and I have explained this to you before, that CO2 does not effect Alk and Alk does not effect CO2. It DOES NOT make any difference what the Alk is if CO2 enters the system, the pH will drop no mater what the Alk is. A pH swing of .10 says nothing about what the Alk is. You can have a drop of .10 pH with any Alk. You can have a Alk of 4 meq / l with a drop of .10 pH and a another tank with a Alk of 2 meq / l with a pH drop of 0.05 pH. What you have stated here is a on going myth about pH, CO2 and Alk relationships. Randy will tell you the same thing.

This can be proven with a glass of water, a pH test kit or meter and a bottle of CO2 or just breathing into the glass with a straw. If you have a pH of say 8.0 and a Alk of 1 meq /l, the pH will fall to the same level, with the same amount of CO2, if the glass had the same pH and a Alk of 4 meq/ l. The only thing that may happen, in a timed test of the pH drop, is that the high Alk water time may take a few seconds longer to drop, as it slows down the rate of reaction a tad. In a tank that is meaningless.

If you have any doubts fell free to ask Randy on our chem forum or seek Pankow's book " Aquatic Water Chemistry.

that is not what i am thinking. i can not help but think an imbalance has resulted from the use of a buffer

Imbalance in what? Both up and Dave have stated this. Unless we mean something like low Mg++ driving down the carbonates from abiotic precip Calcite, pulling down on the buffer/alk and Ca++.

On another note, if two different tanks have the same pH and Alk they both have the same exact amount of CO2.

if the waters buffering capacity is very low (low alk levels) then organic acids will accumulate and a lowered ph

This can be done also from just the CO2 production from the organics with little /no effect on the Alk. If acids involved it can be a double whammy.
 
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funkpolice

Active Member
I say it's due to a closed up house in the winter time. try taking a glass of tank water outside and test the ph out there. I know some skimmers allow for outside air to be sucked in. It's getting nicer out now, open that house up and let the tank breathe.
bill
 
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prow

Well-Known Member
what, a low alk will allow orgaic acids to accumulate and that will cause a lower ph, i dont see why you dont think this doesnt have more of an impact if alk is low opossed to high. i dont think that is an issue here. but a higher alk level will help compensate for the ph, if it is turely 7.8-7.9. or i was thinking maybe he overshoot it and raised alk too much.
as i said i agree with the CO2 lowering ph but alk dose impact the effects. water with a very low alk will be more sensitive to CO2 and pCO2 changes. what is your issue with this? i understand things like algae and photosynthesis have more of a impact on ph and i agree with CO2 lowering his ph. i think you are reading into my posts too much;)
 

BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
If a tank is generating too much CO2 from uneaten food/overfeeding, and the overfeeding practice is stopped, will the situation then correct itself? If so, about how long could I expect to see a change in pH?

Are there other measures I can/should take to alter the situation? I imagine removing leftover food, DOH! lol will help... but something not quite so obvious?
 

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
what, a low alk will allow orgaic acids to accumulate and that will cause a lower ph

That is not what I said, you are reading in to it.

I said

This can be done also from just the CO2 production from the organics with little /no effect on the Alk.

Meaning, organics can break down without producing acids and lower the pH from CO2 and if acids are involved it can be a double whammy. Meaning, one or the other or both. I added this to your correct comment ;)

The normal effect usually for us is both CO2 and acid production form organics. However, there is no set rule that x or y organic during its break down can not just give off CO2 effecting pH and no acid or vise versa or do both. All organics don't give off acids, just like all organics don't give off CO2 and some yield both.


water with a very low alk will be more sensitive to CO2 and Pico

I'll say it again Alk has NO EFFECT on pCO2 changes. Show me a paper that says a lower Alk impacts a change in pCO2, its partial pressure for seawater or FW. However, if one wants to go off the Deep-6 end, then yes, as Alk is part of Salinity, as it is CO3--, HCO3-, Phosphates and Borates, which make up part of Salinity. Salinity effects the pCO2 as it causes a shift in the seawater pK1 and pK2, which are a function of Salinity and temp. In a reef tank there will be no such effect that can be measured. As I stated early, the only thing that may happen is the rate of pH drop, measured in time, from a Low Alk vs. High Alk, will be slower with higher Alk. This is not going to save your tank, unless maybe if we really stretch it, i.e., the Alk is about nil. And surely it is not going to happen with the comment by SeaLover "the alk is a little low" . His Alk is not 1 dkH.



what is your issue with this?

So, that is my issue :)

And to throw out this balance issue. Most reef tanks are out of balance, all one has to do is look at their water parameters. It is just the degree of balance. A Ca++ of 410 ppm and 2.45 meq / l is in Balance. And most run Alk higher than that like in the 3's, making them out of balance at that Ca++ level. What we ( you, me, Dave, others) call an imbalance is probably the same thing. You can't keep the Alk and or the Ca++ up. You try to fix it and it goes right back where it was. Do a water change and it goes away. This is usually from a low Mg++ or the continued addition of buffers at times where you are driving the tank chemistry to a new balance it wants based on solution kinetics from those additions. "Things" are leaving solution, which shifts the activity coefficients of all ions and the solution itself.

An ions wanting to be in solution or its wanting to leave solution is a function of their activity coefficients. This is why you can dissolve more Ca++ in seawater than FW or even table salt, NaCl. The increase in ions lowers the Ac, making it not to want to leave solution. If the ion concentration of the solution is less then the Ac goes up and things like to leave solution. Meaning, seawater has a very low Ac and FW has a very high Ac.

And just for the heck of it another balance issue. If you take well washed carbonate gravel and put it in a beaker of seawater, the pH, Alk and Ca++ will drop as the water and gravel are not in balance. If you now pull out that gravel and stick it under a microscope you will see Hi-Mg-Calcite growths on the gravel. This growth rate also depends on if it is Calcite, Aragonite or Dolomite gravel as the rates or growth are not the same. This usually stops in tanks as the gravel gets coated with organics.

We are lucky that our reef tanks do not precip Aragonite, for if they did we would have more issues. Aragonite does not care what the Mg++ level is . If the Mg++ drops low enough for Calcite it will continue to grow as a precip . Mg++ greatly slows the rate of growth for Calcite precip. However, if it was Aragonite growing it could care less what the Mg++ is and will continue to grow, as it is not effected by Mg++.
 

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Barb

If a tank is generating too much CO2 from uneaten food/overfeeding, and the overfeeding practice is stopped, will the situation then correct itself? If so, about how long could I expect to see a change in pH?

We also need to throw in if there is a fix on high room air. Next weekend have a few people over for a part for a few hr. in your reef room. Keep the windows closed and the door if you can. Then watch your pH drop within an hr or two. You kick the people out and open the window and door and the pH will go right back up within hr. :) Or if there seems to be an issue with high room CO2 just open the window and by the next morning the pH will be back up. If it does not raise it is not a high room CO2 issue.

So, yes it will self correct itself and may do it in a day or two. It will depend on how much uneaten food there is. Other things can effect his also ,like high algae vs. low algae. pH and CO2 can be fixed by using Kalk, which eats up CO2 but we do not want to use if for just a fix although for some they just have to. Buffers ARE NOT to be used to raise the pH, just the Alk. However, if there is a low pH and low Alk then it is fine to use a buffer that is just baked baking soda. Don't ever try to raise the pH up with baking soda, it is a buffer for Alk only really.

Are there other measures I can/should take to alter the situation? I imagine removing leftover food, DOH! lol will help... but something not quite so obvious?

Yes, all that can help. It is best to take this for a good read ;)

Low pH: Causes and Cures
Low pH: Causes and Cures by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
 

BarbMazz

Well-Known Member
Barb

If a tank is generating too much CO2 from uneaten food/overfeeding, and the overfeeding practice is stopped, will the situation then correct itself? If so, about how long could I expect to see a change in pH?

We also need to throw in if there is a fix on high room air. Next weekend have a few people over for a part for a few hr. in your reef room. Keep the windows closed and the door if you can. Then watch your pH drop within an hr or two. You kick the people out and open the window and door and the pH will go right back up within hr. :) Or if there seems to be an issue with high room CO2 just open the window and by the next morning the pH will be back up. If it does not raise it is not a high room CO2 issue.

So, yes it will self correct itself and may do it in a day or two. It will depend on how much uneaten food there is. Other things can effect his also ,like high algae vs. low algae. pH and CO2 can be fixed by using Kalk, which eats up CO2 but we do not want to use if for just a fix although for some they just have to. Buffers ARE NOT to be used to raise the pH, just the Alk. However, if there is a low pH and low Alk then it is fine to use a buffer that is just baked baking soda. Don't ever try to raise the pH up with baking soda, it is a buffer for Alk only really.

Are there other measures I can/should take to alter the situation? I imagine removing leftover food, DOH! lol will help... but something not quite so obvious?

Yes, all that can help. It is best to take this for a good read ;)

Low pH: Causes and Cures
Low pH: Causes and Cures by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Boomer, my system is an upstairs/downstairs system, with the sump and refugium in the basement... skimmer in the sump down there.... so could CO2 in the basement ALSO be a factor? Upstairs I've had the windows open because it's been so nice here. But downstairs... hmmm.

Also, I run a kalkwasser reactor. I mix it four times per day, and dose five times during the night between the hours of 11pm and 6am for 3mins each dosing, lifted with a Tom's Aqualifter pump.

When I get up in the morning, the pH is 7.92, usually. By the time the lights are ready to turn off at night, it tops out at only about 8.05-6-7. Alk tests at appr. 8dkh with an Elos test kit, and about the same with a Salifert kit. PH is measured on the reef IN the display upstairs with a Neptune ACJr regular pH probe that I've calibrated twice, with temperature compensation.

Thanks a bunch for your reply and the link... I've had that bookmarked since I set up my reef last April! I am a chemistry DUNCE so I've read it a bazillion times. :D
 

prow

Well-Known Member
boomer, you posted all kinds of things that have nothing do with what i have said. good info though, lol.

I'll say it again Alk has NO EFFECT on pCO2 changes.

"sensitive to CO2 and pCO2 changes" dose not mean it changes those levels, nor does potentiate the effects. i dont know why you keep thinking i am saying alk changes CO2 levels. sensitive, as in not as drastic of ph swings, or in your words "the rate of pH drop, measured in time, from a Low Alk vs. High Alk, will be slower with higher Alk."--is that not more sensitive? this is what i am saying not alk changes CO2 levels. read back through my posts and you will see this has been what i have been saying. you went off into left field on this one. perhaps the terms sensitive and potentiate mislead you.:dunno:

Meaning, organics can break down without producing acids and lower the pH from CO2 and if acids are involved it can be a double whammy. Meaning, one or the other or both. I added this to your correct comment OO may bad:D


on the balance, yes i am thinking he overdosed buffer.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
sorry sealover, CO2 is carbon dioxide. read the link boomer gave for Barb on low ph causes.
to get rid of it open a window:) increase water circulation with a good rippling of the surface. grow macros, drip kalk the stuff dave posted and what you will be reading in the link..
 

prow

Well-Known Member
NO i did not say you need to drip kalk. that is just one thing that eatsup CO2. if you need to dose Ca+ and alk then dripping kalk may be an option, maybe. first read that link on low ph. if you dont have high enough Ca+/alk demands then kalk would not be a good choice, JMO.

yes CO2 is that same stuff we exhale.
 
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