have an idea need input

[SiNiStEr NaTiOn]

My idea is I want a reef, so I wonder...... could i just start a FOWLR, and then down the road turn the fowlr into a full reef tank?

1> what equipment can i get by on with a fowlr. Because it's been over 10 years since I had a FOWLR, i forgot what equipment i was using for it. But the more I think about that setup I can rmeber I used a skimmer , and I think I use a canister filter, and couple power head to keep the water moving.

1a> I know canister is frowned upon with a reef and use a sump/fuge instead. So what can I use instead of a sump/fuge.

I want to setup as minimal that i can to maintain a healthy tank. The reason I want to go this route is my original plans for a 55 reef was I was gonna wait until i had everything to get it going, and I was looking at sometime next year actually in the last half of 2010.

I'll be changing my research from REEF to FOWLR.

ok if it is safe enough to run a canister, then what should i have in it.

I know test I would need PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and what other test should I run on FOWLR?

I know this is FO only forum, so if this is in the wrong forum then please move this to the appropriate forum.

[molsen187]

i think you can definitly do it that way. i would think you would still want the skimmer depending on how many fish your gonna have and their eating habits.ie messy eaters or what not. you might want to test for phosphates.i use a hang on back refugium that works awesome. i don't have room for a sump at this point in time but the hob refugium was def worth the money. helps keep my nitrates down and allows for pods to grow without being eaten. i found it right on the for sale forum here it was like 30 then i just went out and got a light for like 5 from the forum as well. thats just my opinions i'm sure others will chime in with more and better info.

[Clownfish518]

you can go from fowlr to reef. i do question the canister - even in a fowlr you would have to clean it often. it doesn't do much in the way of filtration in a marine system so you are better off without it. some live rock, a skimmer, and an HOB power filter or two. i say two, because it is easy to convert an HOB filter into a fuge. the live rock is most of your filtration.

you won't need as much rock, or the lighting, should be very nice

[SiNiStEr NaTiOn]

k clownfish with the HOB powerfilters, what would be good to use in them instead of the charcoal cartridge. If i do use 2 I would use one for a a small fuge. I also had decided to up the tank size from 55 to a 75 for the 6" bigger width.

as for the lights go would the normal lighting that comes with the tank be good enough to use. and I know I want to have the clorallmine to grow on the LR so would I need to use a actenic for it?

Plus I'll be looking more closely at live stock to figure out what fish would be good, that won't bother shrimps, snails, well the CUC in general, because i would want the cuc when this tank does go into a reef.

[Clownfish518]

75 is a sweet tank.

All you need to run in the HOB filter is charcoal in a bag, and filter floss. IO kind of like aquaclear sponges - they are cheap and do the trick. I also like chemi pure - comes in a bag, just rinse it off and put it in the filter.

Not sure what your budget is. If you could afford it, I would get a low end T5 system. They are pretty inexpensive to buy and operate both. You could do zoas and softies under it, but what you could also do is macro algaes. They come in interesting shapes and colors, are cheap, and make an interesting display. Go to reefcleaners.org and check out some of them.

My concern is that if your lighting is too low, then you will get cyano growing in the tank which is a pain to get rid of. By putting algae in, it will use up the nutrients from the fish and help control the bad algaes. You don't need heavy duty lighting. Even T5s without individual reflectors would do the trick for you.

Algae will also add visual interest and improve water quality. Don't need to start out with much, just a couple pieces, and when it comes time to trim it, use some super glue gel (cyanocryolate) and glue the clippings to a rock and you have more algae. Just a thought

[SiNiStEr NaTiOn]

that sounds good to me Clown. and I don't want to deal with cyano, i dealt with it back in the late 90's in one of my SW tanks. with macro algaes would there be any certain one I can use that the herbivore won't touch, if you know what i mean.

[Clownfish518]

check out reefcleaners.org. There are several macros that they say won't be eaten - certainly the calcium heavy ones. Ask John Maloney from there - he knows way more about them then I.

[SiNiStEr NaTiOn]

thanxs Clown I'll head over there and check it out.

[DaveK]

If you want a system that can be easily converted between a FOWLR and a reef system, I would recommend that, except for lighting, you use the same components you would use for a reef.

First, water quality is everything, even for a FOWLR system. The better the water quality, the better the results. There really is no shortcut here.

Second, if you go with non-reef components, you are going to want or need to replace them when you convert it to a reef.

Now with that being said, you do not need to go all out and add every possible bell and whistle available. In other words, you can keep the costs reasonable.

If your using a smaller tank, under 65 gal or so, you can use a canister filter, or even hang on the tank filters, provided you use some decent media. While this is acceptable, it's still not going to be as effective as a system with a sump.

BTW, if you are going to go with a canister, go with a top quality one such as Ehiem. Yes, they do cost a lot more that the some of the others, but they will work a lot better, and last a lot longer.

On anything larger, I recommend you go with a sump, and if possible a reef ready tank. You can also save a bundle by making the sump yourself. Many people have used a another much smaller tank to build some excellent DIY sumps.

The other major expense is live rock. Using 100% LR is the fastest way to get a system going, but if your willing to wait, there are far less expensive alternatives. Using dry coral rock or using DIY agrocrete "rocks" costs a lot less. You then introduce a few small pieces of live rock. This will seed the other rock, and given time, often 6 months to year, the other rock will become just as effective as using all LR to start with.

Lighting is the big area where you can save. You do not need a lot of light to support fish. A standard FW hood, using better NO bulbs will work fine. You can even go over to Home Depot or similar store, and get a shoplight or two, and suspend them over the tank. Again, upgrade the original bulbs, and your all set.

You can save a lot of money, but it does need to be done in such a way that you do not compromise the overall system. You also need to plan so you either will not have to replace the equipment when you go to a reef, or the original equipment is so cheep you don't mind tossing it.

[StirCrayzy]

a few thoughts
Get lighting close to what you might want for the reef, if you make a jump from standard T8, to T5 HO or MH or even PC , youre gonna instigate a cyano and diatom bloom. You could do a DIY T5 and easily get away with 2 10K and 2 actinic for now, then add a couple more down the road.
Ive had FOWLR for the last 9 years, only adding a few softies, and anemone.
PC lights, Eheim Pro2, and a HOB skimmer. This combo is great, but WC timing is more critical with a canister not being a great nitrate remover. You could probably sell the canister when your done with it for half.
i only clean the canister every 3 months or so, but i test like crazy.

[bllfish]

You will have to be careful the fish you get are reef safe. A lot of fish eat or nip at corals.

[jnohs]

I realy think tah fowler is a very easy tank to set up even easier and cleaner that a freshwater tank. But i would recomend getting a tank with an overflow this way it t very easy to convert to a reef tank. You do not need to buy a sump for underneath just a 20 gallon tank to hold the water and a return pump. My tank was 500 with a beautifukll oak stand. i have had other tanks with out overflows for saltwater and they did work but the over flow is a beautifull thing. Just remember to keep it simple I notice a lot of people in this hobby like to throw complacation wrenchs in the works. I have attached a pic to this thread to show my sump and its simplicity.

I would not worrie about the lights yet. The tank is the number 1 starting point for your tank. You can allways get different lights easily but a new tank is a true pain in the but. As a fowler you wont need much lighting and with regular t8 floursents you could grow mushrooms if you wanted.

A small list of necessitys

1- Tank with overflow
2-20 gallon tank for sump
3- Return pump
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After that is up and running then

4-protine skimmer
5-livestock and rock
6-new lights
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Obviouse other necessitys

themometer
heater
salt
hydrometer
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Ok here is the best piece of advice you can get r u ready......

Do not touch your tank!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Leave it alone it allway fixes it self.

If you must touch the tank. The best thing to do is a water change.

I would recomend a bare bottem tank. Most people would disagree but I find it mch easier to keep clean because you can wave your hand crazily around the tank to get the detriouse out of the crevices with out worring about disturbing the sand bed. Witch also can go bad on you and nuke your tank so I would stay away from Deep sand bed.

I am sorry to say that you wll get a ton of conflicting advice.


remember keep it siple so there is less to break and easier to clean

[jnohs]

I also would bither testing you will drive your self nuts. If someting is off then instead of putting in additives tring to balance the water parameters equation. You should just do a water change witch will automatically balance out and water parameters problems.

[SiNiStEr NaTiOn]

Thanxs, well as far as the fish goes, I'm planning on getting my fish when they are small, so that way when they are grown, and ready to convert to a reef, that if they aren't reef safe I'll take them into my LFS for in store credit (which I get more for than going the cash route).

But before that even happen, I'll slowly get the equipment I need for the reef. and very slowly incorporate it into the FOWLR. As far as the lighting goes I'll start off with a normal double light fixture that my LFS sells. this way it will give me the time to get the Nove Extreme T5 I want to use for the reef, and slowly adjust the lighting so everything can adjust over time.

I do know couple species I'm gonna have in this tank, and they won't be reef safe, so I'll buy them small and when they are grown, and ready to start the reef part of this tank, I can take them into my LFS. I'm talking about a volitan and a snowflake. I can get a 2-3 inch volitan between $20-$25 larger ones at my LFS sells over $70 depends on their size. and I know I can get a small snowflake for about the same price, while the bigger snowflakes sells little bit more than the volitan, yet depends on the size.

When I use to have a FO I had 55, and it's inhabitants where volitan, moray eel(can't remeber what type), Huma trigger, and a green wolf eel, and 3 horseshoe crabs. But back then there was no internet. but i do remeber I had was running 2 or 3 magnum 350 daisy chained, a single tube stock aquarium lights with 50/50 tubes, and a protein skimmer. then for the substrate I use blasting sand (I know i'll get flak from this sand, but remember there was no internet at that time to do the proper research). everything ran great for the first 2 1/2 years, then after that the silicate in the sand started to release, and when it did I had major brown algae problem in the tank, even with doing wc once a week and at times twice a week. I never did expierence any other algae problem not even back in the beginning when I was cycling the tank.

but yet since i want a cuc I might have to decide if volitan, and eels would be worth it, because i wouldn't want to lose any cuc(snails and shrimps) by having something in the tank that could eat them.

But I have plenty of time to decide on the inhabitant, right now I got a 29 startup kit with some items upgraded that will be my FW tank, and then at my LFS they have a 75g with lights, hood, and wood stand for $399, and this will be my next tank the one I will use for as a FOWLR.

with the 75 when it does get started i'm planning on running a 2 hob filters one of them I'll make a small fuge out of it, and a protein skimmer(I might not be able get this for about 2 to 4 months after the tank is up and running)

sorry for a long post, started typing and didn't pay attention to the length of the post. also before i forget, once i do start with this tank, I will be taking pictures. this I editted in >>> I had forgotten, I'm planning on have QT, so that way I can QT any thing new that will be going tinto the tank.