The Fish List

[Mattfish]

After our averted-near-disaster with water (thanks for everyone's help!), now that we're back in the zone, I'd promised to post a fish list so I could be ridiculed for overstocking. Our tank is a True Vue 130 gallon with an end-overflow, and a 50 gallong sump/fuge below. Ready?

1 Blonde Naso Tang - 6"
1 Yellow Mimic Tang - 5"
1 Desjardin Tang - 6"
1 Vlamingii Tang - 3"
2 Sunrise Anthiases - 2" each
1 Square Spot Anthias - 3"
3 Lyretail Anthiases - 1", 2", 3" each
1 Six Line Wrasse - 1"
1 Radiant Wrasse - 2"
1 Psychedelic Goby - 2"
1 Algae Blenny - 4"
2 False Clowns - 2" each
1 Dartfish - 3"
1 Purple Firefish - 3"
1 Orange Firefish - 3"
1 Blue Face Angelfish - 2"
1 Banggai Cardinal - 2"
1 Arc Eye Hawkfish - 2"
1 Royal Gramma - 1"

Yes, that's 23 fish. There's plenty of room, and in general, everyone gets along, although we're probably going to have to remove the Yellow Mimic Tang - lately, he's killed an Eibli Tang and a Blue Spot Jawfish. Both were beautiful and he was merciless and sneaky - he waited til the lights went out and beat the crap out of both. It was really tough to lose those two and we felt terrible about it.

We also have 2 horseshoe crabs, a brittle star, a sandsifting star, several small orange stars, 6 clams of various kinds, and of course a cleaner crew.

I don;t have a current list of all the corals, but there's plenty of them as well as several sponges, including an Australian white on orange one of pretty good size.

And before we get made fun of, after our water change, the Nitrates are 0. We are starting to get a little Phosphgate problem though (1.0) and I need to get some Phosphate Sponge replaced - the stuff in there is old and not doing anything.....

Go ahead - tell us we're crazy. We can take it!

[vdituri]

Yow! That's alot of fish!

Is the plan to remove some when the grow up or get a humongous tank?

[rlcline76]

I remember when we called you crazy at 21...now you got 2 more. Maaaaaan.....

[Mattfish]

The plan is actually both - some, like the Mimic Tang have to go because they've misbehaved, some will outgrow our tank, and at some point, when I win the lottery and can afford the electricity, we'll get a bigger tank.

And yes, Becky, we passed the 21 mark long ago. We probably had nearly 30 at one point, but some passed away (some for no reason, others due to that Mimic...), but we've also decided to start cutting back on the number and size - we learned a lot from the water problem, and at some point we have to be reasonable. Some day.....

[rlcline76]

30!!!!!

[Mattfish]

In fairness, some of them were pretty small.......

[vdituri]

I call balderdash!
He's skirting the fish law! I'm tellin!

[Mattfish]

Not only did I not buy the rule book, I forgot to mention the anemones - 1 large long-tentacled rose that won't stay put, and a blue/green anemone - I forget which kind right now. The blue/green is well behaved and generally stays in one place. The rose one already split and we took the second half out and traded it back in with the lfs. He looks about ready to split again.....

And there's all the shrimp - 6 cleaner shrimp and 4 fire shrimp. My wife wants more fire shrimp, making me the reasonable one in the family.

And the Blue and Gold Macaw won't go swimming with the fish. He stays on the other side of the living room and screams from time to time..... Happens a lot around here....

[rlcline76]

I really think you like having your chops busted.
Wait, let me get my head around this.

You said: we passed the 21 mark long ago. We probably had nearly 30 at one point.

Dude, I was busting your chops about this in like January or February. So we are looking at at least 9 fish ...NOT QTed in about 5 months.

[Mattfish]

I know somehow, you've got a point to make right? Something about a second tank?

[lcstorc]

Ok, Ill be the one to do it since I break all the rules as well.
Your tank is way overstocked and is showing it by the number of deaths you have had. When you count your fish bioload you calculate at the full size of the mature fish. With that your tangs alone would likely max your bio-load. You really need to start thinning the herd before nature does it for you and nature may have a different order than you would like. How do you even have room for all of that? I have a 125 and my one serpent star can cover 1/4 of the tank when fully spread out.
In all honesty I am overstocked but not nearly as bad as you and I have a gigantic skimmer and do frequent large water changes.
Pick the ones you want to take to the LFS and take them back. A good way to reduce quickly would be to get rid of the tangs. The rest are relatively small so you would probably be fine if the tangs were not there.
Obviously you know this already but nature is really trying to give you a hint by taking out several fish for you.
Shrimp add very little or nothing to the bio-load so as long as they are not being agressive to each other go that direction and take back some of the fish.

[BigAl07]

Surely that's just a typo. You meant to say 1300 instead of 130 right? Wow! that's one HECK of a bio-load!! With that number of fish I'm surprised you're not seeing more aggression from the tangs. When they get crowded/pressured they tend to get ill regardless of how they are "supposed" to act.

[Mattfish]

OK, I know I'm going against the grain, but here's my thing: I regognize that after only a year with this "hobby", that I'm not the most knowledgeable, but being a scuba diver and having spent some time underwater.....

My theory is that within reason, a reef tank environment can work within a range. Some things are beyond reason, but since the fish in our tank don't exactly bump into each other, and we don't plan to keep the larger fish in our tank beyond a reasonable size range, that we have a reasonable amount of fish for the tank. Allowing for them for them to grow, and calculating load on maximum size would make sense to me if we were planning to keep them to full growth.

Our personal preference is towards more movement therfore more fish - we like it, our 2 1/2 year old son likes it, and we expect that means tendency towards higher nitrates and phosphates - sort of a high-activity reef tank. This means tighter monitoring, perhaps more equipment or methods of removal, and that we also are always looking for advice and ideas.

We're also looking to be as safe as we can. Our losses have not been due to lack of consideration, but, I think, over-dependence on the lfs that's been doing our service, at the cost our taking more personal responsibility for what's going on. And also on leniency like not recognizing the aggressiveness of the Mimic Tang. And in fairness, some fish die from time to time - the cycle of life.

That's now come to an end. I'm meeting with them today to discuss all my concerns, we're taking over responsibility for our tank, and as a result, will probably be much more active on this forum as we work to learn more and be more proactive, as well as responsive. Basically, we've been operating ona flawed process and it's now about to improve dramatically.

Some of the improvements are questions around validating new components - like monitors, etc, which I'll raise in the appropriate sections of RS.

But thoughts and comments are always welcome. I'm also a pilot (single- and multi-engine Instrument) and the first rule of flying safely is recognizing dangerous attitudes and correcting them. So full disclosure and discussion is a first priority.

[rlcline76]

MIKE!
No matter how much thinking you put into your argument, it will not fly. You and I have been at this for about a year just with your tank.

Don't worry about the 2 1/2 yr old. Trust me when I say that he will appreciate looking at the tank with less fish. It has more to do with what you want to do, not what the toddler wants. Quit pinning it on someone else.

Oh Allen and Lynn are absolutely correct! You got signs of stress when you go from 21 fish back in January to 30 fish to 22 fish somewhere in between. They might not be showing you by having the bad case of the shudders when the lights go on or nursing a cup of coffee to get through the day, but apparently they are telling you the exact thing we are when you lose 8 fish in a few months. That is a lot!

I think maybe you need to frame our words and put them in big bold letters by the tank to look at everyday.

IT AIN'T ABOUT THE KID.

IT AIN'T ABOUT SCUBA.

IT AIN'T ABOUT THE LFS WHEN BECKY TOLD ME OVER AND OVER AND OVER THAT MIKE LATZKY IS IN CHARGE OF THE TANK. PERIOD.

21 FISH IS TOO MANY FISH.

21 FISH IS TOO MANY FISH.

OH AND...21 FISH IS TOO MANY FISH.

Gotta take responsibility for doing what you want to do. This is all it is, you being self indulgent. With as much money and care we put into our tanks to keep things thriving, you need to be a responsible player in the game, Mike. Overstocking has seriously downgraded the quality of life of those fish which are no longer with you.

[rlcline76]

Oh and, while we are on this topic again...you wouldn't have kept a log on when you lost those fish...and maybe a few corals. We had a betting pool going at the old dive. I'm really just interested in the period between January and the end of March. Gotta make sure the winner gets paid if we had one. lol

I know, I am going to get the finger. I am used to it. But ya know, if Gary finds this out and thinks he might have some money owed to him...