Fish Help Please

[cheeks69]

Stress generally causes ich.

Myth and misconception
It is a common misconception among hobbyists that fish must be in a weakened state before they are susceptible to infection with Cryptocaryon irritans. Stress is a factor as it does reduce immune function in fish. This makes it less likely that fish will develop some level of acquired immunity after becoming infected. However, stress (or weakened condition) is not a prerequisite to infection with Cryptocaryon irritans. Healthy fish that are not unduly stressed are susceptible to infection upon exposure to this pathogen.

Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite, meaning that it cannot complete its life cycle (at the trophont stage) without a host fish. Taking into account that the normal time frame in which tomonts will hatch ranges from 3 to 28 days, a fallow (without fish) period of 30 days to 6 weeks is recommended to eliminate this parasite from an aquarium. Removing all potential hosts from a system for this period of time should eradicate the pest from the aquarium. If the fish are removed from the display to another aquarium for treatment and an effective means of therapy (i.e. hyposalinity or copper treatments) is employed, then those fish will be clean of infection.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2003/mini1.htm

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini3.htm

? garlic for ick

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=329899

[p.villalba]

i thaing that you nned follow the sugestion of cheks . i has ich problems a few month ago i neede move all my fish to another tank. the problem is that when you see ich in some fish is probably that yuou tank have hundreds or thousands the eggs of the parasit waiting to go out and infest some host . when the baby parasit go out of the egg if o have any host that can infest t live and propagate , it die at days or posiible 1- weeks if the tank is satured with eggs. the books that i reed say that you need go uot the fishes for 1 mont because you not know how many eggs ??? have your tank .
in the qt you can add copper base solution with maracyn 2 to attack the bacteria interir and exterior , not forqut soak the food with garlic and vitamins for wake up the inmunology system
hope that you can win the battle with ich

[cheeks69]

COPPER-based medications (some contain other chemicals in combination with copper) should only be administered in an aquarium that does not contain invertebrates, rock, substrate or other calcareous material.

Copper suppresses immune function and is highly stressful to fish. Copper is also toxic to fish, but to a lesser degree than with invertebrates. Administering a dose that is too high may kill the fish being treated. If the copper level is not high enough then the treatment will be ineffective. This necessitates testing the copper level twice a day and making adjustments as needed.

Take care to read the recommended dosage in the instructions when using any copper-based medication. The correct dosage varies with the product. Test the copper level twice a day with a test kit that will accurately measure the particular type of copper that you are medicating with. The results of using an incorrect dosage with any copper-based medication can be catastrophic. Chelated forms of copper tend to require a higher dose and they are generally less effective than the non-chelated forms. A therapeutic copper level should be maintained continuously for a minimum of three weeks.

HYPOSALINITY has numerous advantages over copper-based medications (Bartelme, 2001c). This method does not suppress immune functions such as phagocytic activity. Antibiotics can be used in conjunction with hyposalinity therapy. Some antibiotics are more effective, or a lower dose is required when the salinity is less than that of natural seawater. The salinity only needs to be checked once a day while administrating treatment. Chemical filters such as carbon and Poly Filter™ can be used when employing hyposalinity therapy.
Treatment should continue for a minimum of three weeks after a therapeutic salinity level has been reached. Unlike most other forms of treatment for cryptocaryonosis, hyposalinity does not target the "free-swimming" or theront stage. Hyposalinity therapy works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. Tomonts are destroyed by hyposaline conditions, thus preventing re-infection. HTH

[Gumby]

Day 3 of drugging my fish. (using Marycin and halfing the dossage so I can treat longer)

Gramma seems to be moving around more, not a whole lot, but more than he was before.

Regal is more active, still hides when I walk by so it is hard to see if anything is amiss on his sides as far as the color goes.

Regal seems to be eating more.

Haven't seen the Gramma eat, but I don't see him eat a whole lot anyways. Hit the food feeder button on the automatic feeder and everyone at but him.

Protein skimmer has been off for 3 days.

[Craig Manoukian]

Thanks for keeping us posted!

[Cosmic]

Youi WILL notice I said "generally" in the above statement. A stressed fish brings about a breakdown of the slime coat, which in turn leads a fish to being MORE SUCSEPTIBLE to contracting the ich parasite. I am fully aware of what and how the ich parasite works.
I made that statement due to the fact that he stated he now had RO Water and therefore improving water quality. My whole point being that the high PO4 is not the problem. Most likely it is stress induced or even temperature induced with the weather changes this time of year. Sure, any fish can contract the ich parasite, but it begins showing on the stressed fish first in almost All cases. Perfect example in case here with the blue morpho tang. Easily stressed, first to scratch. So I stand corrected on my above comment...Stress does not CAUSE ich, it GENERALLY breaks down a fish' slime coat to allow a parasite to MORE EASILY attach.

Literally yours,
Cos

[Scooterman]

I agree with COS, he was directing his post based on Gumby's post as to why he is having these problems. It is very difficult to diagnose from what one types or tries to explain so providing as much information helps determine what can be the cause or problem, trouble shooting is very difficult, you just can't throw out a cure without fully understanding the problem. (This is a general statement not pointing to anyone, just acknowledging what it takes to properly help someone over the internet, without actually being there.)!

[Craig Manoukian]

Good job everyone. Lots of good information and I would agree that ich, as with any pathogen, will attack a weaker victim first. Low lying fruit and the most bang for the buck principle. The primary purpose of the pathogen is to procreate so it will attack a healthy host if that is all that is available.

A low stress environment and Cleaner Shrimp are exxtra "vitamins or insurance" in my experience. Two years, two tangs, and no ich! Knock on wood, eh?

[ScottT1980]

Another thread where the ich issue was debated...

Take er easy
Scott t.

[cheeks69]

I am fully aware of what and how the ich parasite works.

I am sure you know much more about this subject than I do and the only reason why I posted was I felt I should elaborate a little more on that point. Hope you didn't take that the wrong way

I would agree that ich, as with any pathogen, will attack a weaker victim first

The parasite will not discriminate and will look for a host wether or not he's healthy and I agree with COS "it begins showing on the stressed fish first in almost All cases".

If you introduce this parasite to your tank unless you quarantine and treat your fish and leave your tank fallow for a minimum of 4 weeks then you'll always have an Ick problem although not always evident. JMHO

[Xanareef]

Originally posted by Gumby
Day 3 of drugging my fish. (using Marycin and halfing the dossage so I can treat longer)

I'm not entirely confident in halfing a dose of any medication unless it's a pain killer and you're half the size of a typical person.

If I remember correctly Marycin is an antibiotic, so what you're treating is a bacterial infection?

Halfing a medication can give the organisim causing the infection the opportunity to develop a strain of itself that's immune to the treatment.

You read or hear about this with human diseases that are commonly treated with Penicillin. Some people don't use their antibiotic for the full treatment time, or they skip doses, etc., and the bacteria mutates and is no longer treatable by penicillin and you have super infections

If whatever is infecting your fish develops a mutated strain after the 3'd day of treatment the rest of the treatment becomes nullified and you have a horrible organisim preying on your livestock. Overtreating with a correct dose can also lead to your livestock losing their beneficial bacteria.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Alexis

*edited for grammar, sentence structure and the way it sounded when typed

[Craig Manoukian]

Great point Alexis!

[Woodstock]

How are the fishes Gumby?

[Gumby]

Last night, all of them were swimming around which is a very good sign. The clown still twitches a little. I have yet to see the royal gramma eat, but he doesn't look like he wasting away, so I don't know what the deal is with him. The regal's red spots are almost gone.

I am out of marycin.

I am turning on my protein skimmer tonight and am adding a bag of carbon to get the green out of the water. I typically add some "cycle" (bottled good bacteria) to the water after I drug my fish.

If my fish are still sick by the end of the weekend, then I will try Marycin 2 and do this all over again.

Thanks for the concern and helping me out on this everyone.

[Woodstock]

Good to hear it's working for you!!