question about fish and water circulation

Miri · 02-29-2004, 11:11 PM

Hello, I'm new here. I just started up a new nano reef... been going for about a good 2 months. I've noticed my fish keep dying fairly rapidly.

I have a 12 gallon uni system by JBJ. 32 watt daylight and 32 watt actinic. 14 lbs of live rock and 20 lbs of live sand. The rio pump, pumps about 400 gal. per hour.

I cycled my tank with 3 damsels, filled most of the tank with saltwater from a sw tank i've had set up for over a year now to boost it. After it was all cycled I started out with a sixline wrasse, false percula and diamond goby. Over time as the fish have died off, I've tried adding a small yellow damsel and replaced the dead clown with another one which has promptly died as well. Only the goby has survived through this all.

I've tested the water for nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and pH. I've also tested the calcium, iodine, and alkilinity. Everything has tested out fine with the exception of a slight ammount of nitrates, which should be ok. My corals are doing great, my crabs are fine. I've tested salinity which has been just a lil high and the temp has been fairly stable throughout the day.

My question is... it seems that the rio pump is really causing a tremendous ammount of circulation of water in the tank. Is it possible that the constant powerful movement of the water is tiring my fish to the point that they die? My goby which has made himself a lil cave seems to be surviving everything and since my corals are all doing great and the water is testing out fine, I can't seem to think of anything else that would cause this. Any kind of suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

-L-

Miri · 02-29-2004, 11:11 PM

p.s. sorry for the horrible lengthiness of my post

-L-

Witfull · 02-29-2004, 11:18 PM

lengthy posts a re great, they provide info that is needed. when you had the fish, did they seem to be blown about?...swimming hard or hiding alot?..if so to much current could be the cause, since the goby is ok. how is the rio hooked up?can it be aimed at the glass abit to cut the force? or get a smaller pump and swap it out.

also are you following proper acclimation processes?...shock can kill fish days later.

Miri · 02-29-2004, 11:22 PM

yes i have been properly acclimated. and yes they do seem to be swimming quite hard. I've provided lots of caves for them but they don't seem to be hiding very much, i guess i need to move the rock around a lil bit

Witfull · 02-29-2004, 11:24 PM

see of you can redirect the Rio so that it hits the glass or rock,,,that will cut the force of the output,,,keep us updated.

Miri · 03-01-2004, 01:04 PM

I've moved the rock completely around. My goby is totally pissed at me, but it will keep him busy for the next few days making some new caves

My fire goby is certainly thankful though. I'm going to do a small water change today and hopefully things will maintain!! I'll start taking pics for you guys

Miri · 03-01-2004, 01:05 PM

btw what does the karma thing mean?

EdgeKrusher · 03-01-2004, 01:13 PM

It is your level of Goodness? That seems like quite an awful lot of flow for a 12 gallon nano. I have a MiniJet 606 in mine which put out about 120 gph, which is about the suggested 10X water flow. I've had a False Perc and Royal Gramma in it for about 9 months now, and they are happy. The F.Perc actually seems to enjoy swimming into the current, or he's got some issues. LOL
I hope it works out for you, keep us updated.

Peace

EK

Miri · 03-01-2004, 01:53 PM

See thats what i thought... I thought the fish were enjoying the current because they would swim around constantly against the current even though there were places for them to hide. I just really can't think of anything else though thats killing my fish. So hopefully moving the rocks around (i put a lot of rocks in the way of where the water gets pumped into the tank) and hopefully it will do the trick. Thank you Wit and Edge for your help

-L-

Tarasco · 03-01-2004, 06:52 PM

Hi, welcome to Reef Sanctuary!

I don't believe that the water movement is an issue. Most reef fish can handle a large amount of flow.

Three measurements that I don't see you mention are temperature, pH, and specific gravity. Daily swings in any of these (or in the case of specific gravity, rapid changes) can be very stressful to your tank inhabitants, and in some cases, cause death. Having a small tank like yours makes it difficult to keep these levels constant. Maybe you should test these two or three times a day, just to see how they're doing? Make a little chart so that you can keep track. Hope this helps!

Miri · 03-02-2004, 04:57 AM

The temp stays at 79 degrees farhenhiet fairly constantly. I've checked that during several different times of the day even really late at night. You're right the specific grav. does fluctuate a bit and I have been having trouble maintaining that a bit. I try to keep it around 1.024 but alas I still have trouble with so much evaporation. So I will try and keep on that a bit better. My pH has been a lil weird. My alkilinity has been mostly around upper 4's, and alkilinity is supposed to maintain pH right?? Well when I started testing the water after the fish died, the pH was more around 7.9-8 so I added a lil buffer to the tank to raise it up a bit. Can you explain why my pH would be lower even though my alkilinity tested out a lil high? I'm just barely starting to understand how all these chemicals work together, so pardon my noobishness

-L-

Miri · 03-02-2004, 04:59 AM

my sister used to live in Long Beach, Tarasco

they have some nice aquarium stores over there

Brucey · 03-02-2004, 05:26 AM

Hi Miri .... Welcome to RS. The actual PH Level is not that harmful to fish, but the swings during the day can be a real stress factor. My PH used to swing from 7.7 to 8.4 and my fish were constantly battling against ich. I'd love to answer your question but I think you need one of the nano experts to help you, I have no experience on small tanks. If it had been a larger system, I would recommend dosing Kalk which raises PH and Alk but I'm not sure about the adverse effects this could have in a nano, as even small amounts of Kalk can elevate PH quite quickly.
Brucey

Tarasco · 03-02-2004, 12:01 PM

Miri - Yup, there seem to be plenty of aquarium stores in the area!

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up on all the chemical interactions, but I was able to find an article that addresses the relationship between alkalinity and pH. Hope you remember high school chemistry (and if you're in high school, you should take chemistry just to get this stuff down!):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

Like Brucey said, the swings in pH are the tough part for the animals. Here's another article on pH problems:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm

Your pH might not be the problem, but it should be good to get it stable anyways.

EdgeKrusher · 03-02-2004, 12:40 PM

Miri,
I have to keep on my tank constantly. I have a dosing system that doese kalk all thru out the day. It keeps the SG in check, and the pH is at a constant 8.3. My alk is around 3.5 and this is constant. How are you topping of your tank? I would defenitly suggest kalk for a nano, it helps immensly, IMO. Since I starte dosing my tank has been very stable, actually not much flux has been seen in the past 5 months. I tride dripping kalk at night, but that didn't work. I could never get the right amount of water Vs. evap. So I made the following doser. DIY Kalk/Top off doser . HTH.

Peace

EK

02-29-2004, 11:11 PM	#1 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	question about fish and water circulation Hello, I'm new here. I just started up a new nano reef... been going for about a good 2 months. I've noticed my fish keep dying fairly rapidly. I have a 12 gallon uni system by JBJ. 32 watt daylight and 32 watt actinic. 14 lbs of live rock and 20 lbs of live sand. The rio pump, pumps about 400 gal. per hour. I cycled my tank with 3 damsels, filled most of the tank with saltwater from a sw tank i've had set up for over a year now to boost it. After it was all cycled I started out with a sixline wrasse, false percula and diamond goby. Over time as the fish have died off, I've tried adding a small yellow damsel and replaced the dead clown with another one which has promptly died as well. Only the goby has survived through this all. I've tested the water for nitrates, nitrites, ammonia and pH. I've also tested the calcium, iodine, and alkilinity. Everything has tested out fine with the exception of a slight ammount of nitrates, which should be ok. My corals are doing great, my crabs are fine. I've tested salinity which has been just a lil high and the temp has been fairly stable throughout the day. My question is... it seems that the rio pump is really causing a tremendous ammount of circulation of water in the tank. Is it possible that the constant powerful movement of the water is tiring my fish to the point that they die? My goby which has made himself a lil cave seems to be surviving everything and since my corals are all doing great and the water is testing out fine, I can't seem to think of anything else that would cause this. Any kind of suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!!! -L-

03-01-2004, 01:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
EdgeKrusher Plate Coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN Posts: 716 View Gallery Karma Komment	It is your level of Goodness? That seems like quite an awful lot of flow for a 12 gallon nano. I have a MiniJet 606 in mine which put out about 120 gph, which is about the suggested 10X water flow. I've had a False Perc and Royal Gramma in it for about 9 months now, and they are happy. The F.Perc actually seems to enjoy swimming into the current, or he's got some issues. LOL I hope it works out for you, keep us updated. Peace EK __________________ ((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸>< ((((º>¸¸.·´¯`·.¸. `·.. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º>¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.

03-01-2004, 06:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
Tarasco Plate Coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 724 View Gallery Karma Komment	Hi, welcome to Reef Sanctuary! I don't believe that the water movement is an issue. Most reef fish can handle a large amount of flow. Three measurements that I don't see you mention are temperature, pH, and specific gravity. Daily swings in any of these (or in the case of specific gravity, rapid changes) can be very stressful to your tank inhabitants, and in some cases, cause death. Having a small tank like yours makes it difficult to keep these levels constant. Maybe you should test these two or three times a day, just to see how they're doing? Make a little chart so that you can keep track. Hope this helps! __________________ Mike "I saw what the governor makes. That's like four hands of blackjack." -- Charles Barkley on why he wasn't seriously considering becoming the Governor of Alabama

03-02-2004, 05:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
Brucey Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Reading, England Posts: 1,292 View Gallery Karma Komment	Hi Miri .... Welcome to RS. The actual PH Level is not that harmful to fish, but the swings during the day can be a real stress factor. My PH used to swing from 7.7 to 8.4 and my fish were constantly battling against ich. I'd love to answer your question but I think you need one of the nano experts to help you, I have no experience on small tanks. If it had been a larger system, I would recommend dosing Kalk which raises PH and Alk but I'm not sure about the adverse effects this could have in a nano, as even small amounts of Kalk can elevate PH quite quickly. Brucey __________________ 160UK Gallon. (192US Gallon). 400Lbs LR. Aquamedic Turboflotor 5000 Shorty skimmer. Arcadia 3Series pendant (3x250W 14,000'K MH & 2x58W 60" actinic) (DIY cooling fan). Tunze 7095 Multicontroller & 2xTunze 6100 Streams. Redsea 100 Aquazone Plus ozonizer and redox computer. Aquamedic Ocean Runner 6500 return. TMC Vectron 30W UV sterilizer. Aquamedic Aquaniveau auto top up system through Deltec 500 kalk stirrer. PurityOnTap RO/DI. Deltec FR509 (ROWAPhos). Aquamedic PH computer controlling KNOP HD Calcium Reactor. Setup Nov 2002 See my tank here http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...&threadid=4486

03-02-2004, 12:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tarasco Plate Coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 724 View Gallery Karma Komment	Miri - Yup, there seem to be plenty of aquarium stores in the area! I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up on all the chemical interactions, but I was able to find an article that addresses the relationship between alkalinity and pH. Hope you remember high school chemistry (and if you're in high school, you should take chemistry just to get this stuff down!): http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm Like Brucey said, the swings in pH are the tough part for the animals. Here's another article on pH problems: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm Your pH might not be the problem, but it should be good to get it stable anyways. __________________ Mike "I saw what the governor makes. That's like four hands of blackjack." -- Charles Barkley on why he wasn't seriously considering becoming the Governor of Alabama Last edited by Tarasco : 03-02-2004 at 12:04 PM.

02-29-2004, 11:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	p.s. sorry for the horrible lengthiness of my post -L-

02-29-2004, 11:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	yes i have been properly acclimated. and yes they do seem to be swimming quite hard. I've provided lots of caves for them but they don't seem to be hiding very much, i guess i need to move the rock around a lil bit

03-01-2004, 01:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	I've moved the rock completely around. My goby is totally pissed at me, but it will keep him busy for the next few days making some new caves My fire goby is certainly thankful though. I'm going to do a small water change today and hopefully things will maintain!! I'll start taking pics for you guys

03-01-2004, 01:05 PM	#7 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	btw what does the karma thing mean?

03-01-2004, 01:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	See thats what i thought... I thought the fish were enjoying the current because they would swim around constantly against the current even though there were places for them to hide. I just really can't think of anything else though thats killing my fish. So hopefully moving the rocks around (i put a lot of rocks in the way of where the water gets pumped into the tank) and hopefully it will do the trick. Thank you Wit and Edge for your help -L-

03-02-2004, 04:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	The temp stays at 79 degrees farhenhiet fairly constantly. I've checked that during several different times of the day even really late at night. You're right the specific grav. does fluctuate a bit and I have been having trouble maintaining that a bit. I try to keep it around 1.024 but alas I still have trouble with so much evaporation. So I will try and keep on that a bit better. My pH has been a lil weird. My alkilinity has been mostly around upper 4's, and alkilinity is supposed to maintain pH right?? Well when I started testing the water after the fish died, the pH was more around 7.9-8 so I added a lil buffer to the tank to raise it up a bit. Can you explain why my pH would be lower even though my alkilinity tested out a lil high? I'm just barely starting to understand how all these chemicals work together, so pardon my noobishness -L-

03-02-2004, 04:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
Miri Tunicate Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: California Posts: 18 View Gallery Karma Komment	my sister used to live in Long Beach, Tarasco they have some nice aquarium stores over there

03-02-2004, 12:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
EdgeKrusher Plate Coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eden Prairie, MN Posts: 716 View Gallery Karma Komment	Miri, I have to keep on my tank constantly. I have a dosing system that doese kalk all thru out the day. It keeps the SG in check, and the pH is at a constant 8.3. My alk is around 3.5 and this is constant. How are you topping of your tank? I would defenitly suggest kalk for a nano, it helps immensly, IMO. Since I starte dosing my tank has been very stable, actually not much flux has been seen in the past 5 months. I tride dripping kalk at night, but that didn't work. I could never get the right amount of water Vs. evap. So I made the following doser. DIY Kalk/Top off doser . HTH. Peace EK

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