in_a_days' saltwater adventure

[althea2you]

Originally Posted by Paul B

The only criticism I can offer is that a 10" lion fish is probably equal to about 6 medium sized tangs. It can live fine in that tank but should not have been added so soon. When you cycle a tank with as an example three damsels, then the tank has sufficient bacteria to process the waste of three damsels.
To add a 10" fish so soon would overwhelm the esisting bacteria and could cause a severe bacterial bloom or a large ammonia spike. Of course it may not do anything. But you really should add life slower to give the bacteria a chance to catch up.
Good luck. The Lion is beautiful.
Paul

if i understand his post correctly, its been 6 months since he added the Lion Fish....

[in_a_days]

Originally Posted by Paul B

The only criticism I can offer is that a 10" lion fish is probably equal to about 6 medium sized tangs. It can live fine in that tank but should not have been added so soon. When you cycle a tank with as an example three damsels, then the tank has sufficient bacteria to process the waste of three damsels.
To add a 10" fish so soon would overwhelm the esisting bacteria and could cause a severe bacterial bloom or a large ammonia spike. Of course it may not do anything. But you really should add life slower to give the bacteria a chance to catch up.
Good luck. The Lion is beautiful.
Paul

Thanks Paul. You're completely right and I actually experienced the exact problem you're describing. Chalk it up to inexperience and impatience. I think I should definitely have added another 3-6 Damsels and let it continue to cycle for at least another month.

After I introduced the big guy I had detectable ammonia for about six weeks. Over that time I was very diligent with water changes every other day, and I used a capful of Seachem Prime once a week. Of course this disrupted the cycling process and made it take longer than it probably otherwise would have, but the lion never showed any major signs of stress.

I did see him "cough" or twitch slightly from time to time when there was detectable ammonia, but that was about the worst of of it. He will still "cough" from time to time, and I have read this is a normal part of their "shedding" process. But since my Ammonia and Nitrate hit consistant zero back in October I have not seen a twitch and the "coughing" is rare and usually only associated with his body slime changes.

I also experienced a brown algae bloom. I wish I gone hunting for a board like this before I got everything started. But I'm doing my best to keep my critters happy.

[BigAl07]

Originally Posted by in_a_days

I wish I gone hunting for a board like this before I got everything started. But I'm doing my best to keep my critters happy.

That's ALL you can do and at least you're doing the right thing buddy!!

[in_a_days]

Originally Posted by althea2you

if i understand his post correctly, its been 6 months since he added the Lion Fish....

This is correct. Started the tank end of June, added the lion end of July. But as previously posted, I hadn't quite sufficiently cycled the tank to prepare it for a fish the size of my lion so I continued to experience occasional ammonia spikes for a couple months. Ammonia and Nitrite have read zero for about four months.

[in_a_days]

Originally Posted by framerguy

Love the Colliseum/Atlantis effect. That damsel (or chromis) is livin' dangerous, it looks plenty small enough to be a decent meal! A sump/fuge would be a good addition to hide the equipment and stuff. Looking good!

I'm glad you like it.

Maybe instead of just replacing it with live rock I'll fill it with rubble or something so I can keep the look.

[in_a_days]

Clean up crew right now includes 2 Turbo Snails, 2 Nassarius Snails and maybe half a dozen hermit crabs. Also the LR hitchhiking Brittle Star. I actually have another half dozen or so hermits. But I tossed them in the 10 gallon after reading several threads here on the board. I'm going to try to give most of them away, or just take them to the LFS (I got most of them for free anyways). I have a really nice looking Electric Blue Hermit Crab which I plan to keep in the main tank. I don't know if that description on liveaquaria is just marketing hype, or if these guys really are better than your average hermit crab. But it's a really really pretty crab. He'll either be in there by himself or with one other hermit, max.

And just a couple additional details...

I am running a Penguin Bio-wheel 350 for filtration and a Maxijet 900 powerhead for circulation.

[in_a_days]

Here's another shot of my lion



And my Mantis tank arrived today.

Just need to go pick up some live rock rubble and a little more sand and I should be good to go.



But that'll have to wait as I'm going on an ice fishin' trip to Utah this weekend.

[ReefGuy69]

Hmmm you might have just pinpointed your nitrate problem... It might be your biowheel. If im not mistaken the wheel can be a nitrate factory. Isnt it just a carboard or felt thingy that rotates like a paddle wheel in the water and then out. Just a thought. i may be way out in left field or i may have struck the gold mine when it comes to your problem. I like the lion fish tho. really cool. i always wanted one but am scared of getting stung. Im deathly allergic to bees so i can imagine he would do the same to me.

[in_a_days]

Originally Posted by ReefGuy69

Hmmm you might have just pinpointed your nitrate problem... It might be your biowheel. If im not mistaken the wheel can be a nitrate factory. Isnt it just a carboard or felt thingy that rotates like a paddle wheel in the water and then out. Just a thought. i may be way out in left field or i may have struck the gold mine when it comes to your problem. I like the lion fish tho. really cool. i always wanted one but am scared of getting stung. Im deathly allergic to bees so i can imagine he would do the same to me.

Just found a very interesting discussion about that very topic here...

Seems like there is a lack of consensus.

[ReefGuy69]

Yeah well i read it as well and have heard both sides. But the common concensus seems to be is yes they can harbor nitrates but that it still is beneficial to your system.. I would say do your own experiement. Take it off for 30 days and test.. see for youself. then you will truly now.

[Paul B]

Anything that is called a "nitrate factory" in this hobby is actually a good thing. It means that the ammonia created by the animals is being converted to nitrate very fast. Nitrate is there because it used to be ammonia before it was converted. Ammonia is very toxic and it is an irritant to the fish.
The problem is that you don't have enough anerobic bacteria to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas so it can be eliminated.
THe bacteria that convert ammonia develop very fast, with in days which is the reason nitrate levels are high in a new tank. Anerobic bacteria take longer, maybe three months to be able to process the nitrate but these bacteria always lag behind the ammonia (or actually nitrite) reducers. The big problem is that as soon as you put water in a tank, all of the available spaces will be colonized by bacteria but not necessarilly the bacteria that we want. It takes a few months for the beneficial bacteria to colonize those spaces.
Wet dry filters are very efficient, thats why they are called nitrate factories as are bio wheels. If you use these devices coupled with an efficient way to remove the nitrate, you would have the best system of all.
DSB's have very little capacity to convert ammonia but they are good at nitrate conversion due to their lower levels of oxygen. We need both, nitrate factories and nitrate eliminators.

[Octoman]

I don't want to threadjack too much, but I disagree about "nitrate factories". The bacteria that grow on bioballs or biowheels do a great job of converting ammonia and nitrite, however, bacteria growing on live rock and in sand can do just as good of a job and are in a location where the nitrates can be further processed in anaerobic areas of the rock or sand bed without having to be released into the water column. I take care of a 150 that was a nitrate nightmare until I took the bioballs out.

Just my opinion though, but I say an adequate amount of live rock can completely eliminate the need for biowheels, bioballs, etc... I've never used them on my tank at home and never had problems with ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.

[lcstorc]

Beautiful lion. I am glad things are going better for you.
I don't think I would add rubble to the decoration. The rubble will likely trap detrius from the lion and befome a problem unless you vacuum and clean it regularly. Looks like things are headed in the right direction with the addition of more LR. At least in the pics it doesn't look like the algae is that bad. Keep up on the water changes and it should go away.

[Paul B]

Octoman, I actually agree with everything you said. It is better to grow the bacteria on rock and sand because these things also harbor anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrate.
Anyway, where was that picture taken in your Avitar? It looks familiar.
Paul

[Octoman]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Octoman, I actually agree with everything you said. It is better to grow the bacteria on rock and sand because these things also harbor anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrate.

I also stressed an adequate amount of live rock. If there is not enough surface area on the rock, then an efficient wet/dry filter such as a biowheel would be very important to remove deadly ammonia. So I agree that we are in agreement

Originally Posted by Paul B

Anyway, where was that picture taken in your Avitar? It looks familiar.
Paul

Coco Plum Caye, Belize
We went last year, it was spectacular!


In_a_days, sorry to go off on a tangent in your thread, but I think we covered an important point for you. Removing the biowheel may help with nitrates, however, if you don't have an adequate amount of bacteria on your rock, it could cause a spike in deadly ammonia and nitrites. If you decide to remove it, proceed with caution and test frequently... And, I love the lionfish, I used to have dwarf lions and leaf fish, they are some of my favorite fish!