Here We Go Again!

[Dentoid]

Melaine here are my recommendations:

Use your 10 gallon tank as a QT. Bare bottom, no substrate. use 10 gallons of water from your display to start this tank. Use a HOB filter with a sponge. Possible a power head in the tank to keep a good flow. You may want to set it up under your display, if you have room. It will also need a light.

Move what LR you have, in your display, to this tank as well as your livestock. Plan on leaving it there for several weeks

In your display, get rid of the plastic corals. Remove the subatrate and wash it well with clean saltwater or discard and just get more. Fine argonite is great. If you get new substrate, save a few cups of the old to seed the new. If you get new and seed, place some new then disperse the old and place more new on top. Like a substrate sandwich. Or just replace half of it with new. Cost may be a factor. So go from there.

Get all new LR. A minimun of 1 lb per gallon. Preferably, 1 1/2-2 lbs per gallon. Do not skimp here, this is your main filtration. If cost is a factor, I'd keep the old substrate before skimmping on the LR. You may want to check into www.tampabaysaltwater.com. This LR is some of the best you can get and they are located in Tampa. Perhaps you can go there and pick it up. When you get your new rock, aquascape your heart out! Pile it up in an attractive way. Make caves and overhangs so that water can flow in and around the LR. Get a good power head. The Koralia line of PH's are great and affordable. Get that going in the display so that the surface water is moving.

Remove the bioballs, filter floss and discard. You do not need them with adequate LR. Just let the water fall into the sump. Later you can add some LR in the sump.

Second most important thing is a new skimmer. The ASM line is very good. Consider a G1X or a G2. Make sure you compare the foot dimension of the skimmer with what available room you have in the sump. Get the one that fits. You could consider getting a bigger sump that fits under your stand that already has a refugium build it. Again, this is more cost, but is a consideration.

Recap:
1. Set up QT
2. Move Lr and livestock
3. Clean old sand and reuse; all, half, or none.
4. Get new LR.
5. Get new skimmer
6. Consider new sump/refugium.
7. After setting this all up wait for the cycle to end then return your livestock

[DrHank]

Excellent Scott! Exactly what I would do. Here's my however. Melanie ASM skimmers are great but don't skimp here Forget about the G1X and maybe the G2. I would recommend you go all the way to a G3. As an alternative you could look at the Octopus NW-150. What you want is a needle wheel skimmer that is rated to handle at least 150 gallons. I personally found this out the hard way (buying a NW-110 for my 110 gallon). The poor skimmer worked like crazy but could never keep up with the demand.

IMO I would recommend either an ASM G3 or an Octopus NW-150. You may want to consider used. Many hobbiests sell there old equipment when they move to larger tanks or quit the hobby.

As a matter of fact I'll be selling my Coralife 65 but trust me, you don't want it. It worked well enough on my 29 gallon but I can't say I'd recommend it on a tank much larger. Pssst... I really didn't like it very much!

[bluespotjawfish]

IMHE, I don't think you need to remove the LR, just supplement it. I think you should keep enough of the old stuff (LR and some sand) so you don't have to go through a tank cycle. I wouldn't bury the existing sand with the new, it will suffocate it. When I replaced my sand, I kept about a fourth of it, rinsed it well with fresh SW and mixed in the new sand, then put my LR back in (after I cleaned it with a brush in existing tank water). The tank didn't cycle after that and my old LR is not preventing me from keeping the nitrates and alk where they need to be. I would then continue with large WCs until the nitrate and/or alk is where it should be. Make sure the magnesium level is correct and that the calc is raised in balance with the alk in the meantime. Keep an eye on your pH too. If you keep the existing wet/dry going with the bio balls for another few weeks, that will also help it not cycle. You can then slowly remove the bioballs, etc. While all of this is going on, purchasing a good skimmer and getting some more LR cycled in a tub is a good idea. Also, I'm not sure if you have already indicated this or not. Do you use RO water? If not, check the alk level in your tap water.

[Melanie]

Might I ask why everyone is saying I have a bad skimmer? What is wrong with it?

[Melanie]

Test Results 7/7/07: (several hours after water change)

• NO2 0.1
• NO3 0
• Alk High
• Ph 8.2
• Salinity 1.020/1.021
• Amonia 0.25
• Temp 77 degrees

There is some nasty brown goo in my bioballs. Do you know what this is? Is it bad? How do I get rid of it?


Why does everyone hate bioballs?

[lcstorc]

Well having spoken to you on the phone I think you are in decent shape as far as the skimmer (It is a Berlin venturi guys) a bit on the small side if I remember correctly rated at about 100 g or so but not bad at all. We all hate the bio-balls pretty much because we keep reef systems. Bio-balls are great for the bacteria that converts amonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate but they do not remove the nitrate. Corals hate nitrates while fish are fine with them unless they get ridiculous.
With that said though I would give yours a serious cleaning in NSW since they look like they have a lot of detrius trapped in them.
I love the idea of moving the livestoct to the other tank while you get this one re-established. You will still have a cycle and will be in water change hell for a while but it is a lot easier in the small tank and you only have the one fish and a couple of inverts to worry about at this point.
This is what I would do.
Move the LR and the fish to the smaller tank with a handful or so of the bio-balls. Keep a close eye on parameters and do water changes as necessary. Necessary may be a lot. When I set up my qt I was doing 2 50% water changes a day and the amonia was still over 1.
Raise your salinity on the tank to 1.025 or 35ppm and your inverts will thank you for it. Meanwhile spend your time cleaning or removing the bio-balls getting everything cleaned and ready in the display and most importatly getting some serious LR. I would get at least 100lbs for your tank. If you want sand then this would be the time to do it. Set up the skimmer etc and add a shrimp from the grocery store to kick off the cycle. Once the new/old tank has properly cycled then you can add your original fish and lr back in. From that point on you should be in good shape.
The hardest part will be keeping the paramaters good on the 10g tank. It is going to require daily attention since there is so little water to dilute the polutants.
Anyway, that is my opinion. HTH
Do not give up. It will end up wonderful just going to take some time and attention to get it there.

[Dentoid]

Originally Posted by Melanie

Test Results 7/7/07: (several hours after water change)

• NO2 0.1
• NO3 0
• Alk High
• Ph 8.2
• Salinity 1.020/1.021
• Amonia 0.25
• Temp 77 degrees

There is some nasty brown goo in my bioballs. Do you know what this is? Is it bad? How do I get rid of it?


Why does everyone hate bioballs?

I think Lynn has answered your question, but the brown goo on your bioballs is detritus. Bad stuff! Breaks down to nitrate. Bioballs have a very large surface area that is highly oxygenated. This is great for the denitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, but that is where it stops. Therefore, bioballs are what everyone calls "nitrate factories". like Lynn said, fish are tolerant of nitrate, but corals and most invertebrates are not.

I recommended getting rid of them in the beginning if you were to get 100lbs of LR or more. You are going to have a some kind cycle anyways, and since you don't have any livestock in the tank, you might as well get rid of the bioballs from the get go. Otherwise later when you start removing them you'll get little cycles. Let the LR become the main biological filter from day one. IMO.

[DrHank]

Melanie, I'm sorry if my post gave you the impression that you had a bad skimmer. Sometimes I loose sight of the fact that you are setting up a FOWLR. We all have the tendancy to use the best and most efficient skimmers to remove the maximum amount of organics from our tanks. This helps to reduce the nutrients in the water which can cause algae to bloom.

I've had good results in the past using a wet/dry filter and dead coral skeleton in a fish only tank. Nitrates get very high and water changes reduce them. We all try to recommend what we feel will help folks the most and I guess that most of us also assume that most folks who have success with a FOWLR ultimately proceed to a reef tank.

There isn't anything wrong (you don't have a bad skimmer) with the Berlin Venturi Skimmer. I also happen to have one of those. At one time they were considered the best because of the combination of a venturi and counter current. They still work but can be somewhat difficult to set for greatest efficiency. Again, in a reef system, that's what we all strive for.

I can tell you that on my tank I feel the two most important components are my protein skimmer and my lighting. They keep my reef alive. Again, I apologize if my previous post caused you concern.

[Melanie]

Dr. Hank: I will probably one day proceed to a reef tank. Because I think a reef tank is a little more sensitive and perhaps a bit harder (and expensive!) to maintain, I'd like to be successful with my fish-only tank before I move onto the reef. Believe me, my hubby always asks me why I don't buy an anemone/clown combo and I have to tell him that my one-strip floursecent fixture and crappy test readings just won't do for ANY anemone. I know he'd like to see a reef tank, therefor I bought the rubber corals. It'll keep him satisfied as long as I clean off the brown algae every week. Hubby LOVES "clownies" and I will hopefully buy a pair again during this tank stocking.

If you have been looking at my test results, nitrates never seem to be too high. It's just the ammonia and nitrites that keep that "just-above-zero" level that is driving me crazy.

I'm wondering if my test kit is too old. I can't even remember when I got it. Sometime in the last 4 years. There is no expiration date on it, so I'm hoping it's actually correct. Lynn told me to check my tests by having it done at the LFS to compare results.

BTW, my tank inhabitants are doing great today. Everyone looks happy and healthy. New firefish is a little skittish, but otherwise beautiful and doesn't look at all stressed.

P.S. I'm searching all over for the cheapest live rock. I met some guys about 7 years ago that were starting a live-rock business and they gave me their numbers. I'm trying to reach them to see if I can get a discount. I've also looked on Craig's List to see if anyone will part-off their saltwater to me. I have a pretty good lead so far on a guy that will sell me 100+ lbs for $100. He lives close to me. He has more stuff, but I have a 72 gallon and he has a 250 gallon so I don't know if any of it will work for me.

Also have been reading up on maritime law to see if I can harvest live rock anywhere myself. So far, no luck. Florida law says NO harvesting and federal waters default to FL law. I can't find international law because I'm apparently google-retarded. If anyone knows how far from coast international waters start, I will Karma you like no one's business. Extra Karma if you send me the link with with international water live-rock collection law. I might even KISS you (if you want.)

[lcstorc]

I would not necessarily go with the cheapest live rock. It is such an important part of the system I would really look for quality before price though of course price always plays a part. Particularly since you are going FOWLR for a while you could go with some LR and some "dead" rock. The LR will seed the other rock with the good bacteria, it justs takes time. Do you ever venture over to Orlando? I work there and could easily bring you some base (or dead) rock that has been in my fuge for about a year and has a good bit of life in it. Or your lfs may well sell base rock and you can buy some there for much less than LR. I have gotten some beautiful pieces from my LFS including a piece his 2 year old daughter sold me. (She kept saying how pretty it was and then I looked. ) If the "cheap" LR is coming from someone's system who is tearing down or something then go for it. It will likely be great. What you want most of all is porus rock. Don't worry about pretty colors or corraline just yet. That will come with time. You want as many crevices etc as you can for the bacteria to populate.
Ok I have babbled long enough. I hope you have a great weekend and hope that mr fire fish remains in good health.

[DrHank]

Melanie, if your test kits are 4 years old chances are that the reagents are all bad and that all your readings are off. One of your LFSs should be happy to test it for you. even if they charge a small amount it's probably worth it. I would recommend that you just go ahead and buy a new kit. Since you're planning on a FOWLR you don't necessarily need to buy the best. I've got a Red Sea test kit that is good enough for basic testing and could recommend that brand for your purpose. When you get into reef tanks more accuracy is needed and most of us buy Salifert.

It is possible (if your ammonia reading has always been the same) that it is zero and bad reagents are the cause. The same could hold true for Nitrite and nitrate. Wouldn't it be nice if your parameters were fine and your test kit was the problem! I hope that is the case.

One last word of caution, I would be very reluctant to add any locally collected specimens to your tank. I know some folks who have done it and introduced pathogens which have wiped out their tank. If you do decide to try that make sure that you quaranteen them for an extended period of time befor introducing them into your tank.

[bluespotjawfish]

I'm starting to think you really don't have much of a problem at all. New test kits and some more live rock... You can even use live rock (or LR rubble) in where the bioballs are instead of the bioballs.

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by bluespotjawfish

I'm starting to think you really don't have much of a problem at all. New test kits and some more live rock... You can even use live rock (or LR rubble) in where the bioballs are instead of the bioballs.

That's a great idea bluespotjawfish! I don't really want to make a bunch of modifications because I'm pretty new. Once I move everything over to the qt I can replace the bioballs with LR rubble!

I will probably eventually replace my skimmer because although it was somewhere between $100 - $200, it is so difficult to maintain. I must "adjust" it several times a day to keep it functioning properly. It is so sensitive that even minor water evaporation will drop it so that it is just spinning the water and not foaming. That is going to be one of my future buys.

I cleaned the gunk (aka detritus) out of the bioballs. I didn't even know you could access the bioballs! ha ha ha. I thought they were sealed up.

I can't locate my red fromia starfish. I will keep looking today. I haven't seen it, but I think the emerald mythrax crab was picking at him. He had a little torn spot on the end of an arm one morning and about a week later he had a second arm with a torn area. I've seen the emerald crab "attack" my rubber anemone. He tried to eat it the day I put it in. I've also seen the emerald crab kill a snail. On the bright side, that guy never stops eating. He LOVES any bit of algae.

The firefish is so skittish. When he's out and about, he looks great. But if I get within six feet of the tank, he darts into a cave. I can't even see him in there. I will try to pick future fish that are more friendly

Today I'm going to go get a new test kit to double check my readings.

[lcstorc]

Very good plan. You are back on your way to an awesome tank. Just be sure to pick reef safe fish since I believe you will eventually be bitten by the reef bug.
Call if there is anything I can do to help or if you just want to talk etc,
Oh and if you get a new skimmer, I am a major fan of the ASM G series. A G2 should be great for your tank. A 3 would be even better if you plan to keep sps which need very clean water. Premium Aquatics (one of our sponsors who has been very good to me) has the G2 in stock for $240 including the pump. You may be able to find an even better price somewhere but I will say their customer service is awesome.
Take it slow and you should end up with a gorgeous tank.

[bluespotjawfish]

You sound a bit happier today, I'm glad! IMO, if I were you I really wouldn't even mess with putting the fish in a QT at this point (unless you need to treat for disease). You don't have a heavy bioload in the regular tank right now, if you put them in the 10 it would be a heavy bioload and it might cycle anyway. I'd deal with it in the the regular tank, just don't add anything new until you have the additional LR in place and everything reads 0. I'd put the new LR in a rubbermaid tub to cycle it, then add it. Make sure that when you clean the bioballs you use your used saltwater in the meantime (clean them each week). Also, when you pickup the testkit, take a water sample and have them check your water too.

I like my G2 a lot, it's very easy to maintain.