Here We Go Again!

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by DrHank

Sounds like a good plan. I've been in hiding today (was going to stay there until you felt better). Vinegar (acetic acid) is milder than Bleach (Sodium hydroxide). It will probably work very well. I have just used Bleach so many times it doesn't scare me. You neutralize it's effects with Water dechlorinator ( Sodium Thiosulfite). Stick with the vinegar and you should be fine.

The only thing that I might suggest is that instead of Agri alive sand, I would use Aragamax Sand. My reason is that I can't see how alive it can be if it's sealed in a plastic bag with no gas exchange. There isn't anything wrong with Agri alive but any sand that you put into your tank is going to become alive after a short period of time because of the live rock.

Take your time. Learn, learn, learn. I still have to tell myself to do it from time to time. I still make mistakes. I try to make little ones.

I'm hoping my angelfish makes it but in this hobby you can never be sure. You do all you can. I'm sure that you didn't know but when my fish got sick, I asked for help on 4 sites. I got a lot of responses and yet bottom line is that sometimes no matter how hard you try, things don't work out. At least I got the fish out of the display, The Ick appears to have been secondary and minimal, and everything in the main tank seems ok.

You are doing great for being involved for such a short period of time. Think of all that you have learned Take your time and every now and then, stop to enjoy. I'm sure your QT is doing great. Wish I could say the same.

AND STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP. YOU'RE DOING GREAT!!!

Awww, I'm sorry you thought I was upset because of something you said. I appreciate it when people tell me the truth!

So THAT's what the de-chlorinator was for. I wondered.

I have the sand and it was "free" after I turned my big pump back in. It has water and sand in the bag with a "Use before Dec 07" on the front. Maybe the bacteria survives a little while in the bag like that. Who knows.

I'm also sorry I've been so self-obsessed (or tank obsessed) I didn't know you had a sick angelfish.

Sounds like a plan to me. I like the vinegar idea better than the bleach as well. Bleach would just scare me. Then again I tend to be paranoid.
The only thing I would possibly change is how long you leave the current LR in the bucket to cure. It may take more than the 4-6 days you are planning. That may be enough time but may not. I would keep testing and changing the water in the container until you get some decent readings. The base rock you already have is unlikely to have much if any life in it so I would probably leave that out to dry again and re-use it when you aquascape the tank. Should save you some room in the container of rock that is curing.
I am also unsure of the Lugols. I have only heard of using it for corals. Doesn't mean it is wrong to do by any means. Just that I have never heard of dipping the LR in Lugols. Hopefully someone who knows can pipe in on that one.

I can see advantages to both leaving the live rock in the bucket until it is fully cured and putting it in the tank before that.

Pros on leaving the rock in the tub til it's cured: WAY easier to clean; a LOT less water for water changes.
Cons of leaving the rock in the tub til it's cured: Won't I have to have another tank cycle? Or will the good bacteria on the rock mean I won't have to cycle the tank before I can add livestock, CUC, or beginner corals?

Thanks for the tip on the base rock. That will save me a little room in the tub.

I'll tell you what the LFS guy said about the Lugols. He said that he dips all his corals and live rocks in it when they come in the store to help rid the stuff of parasites. He said it would help to make sure the sand fleas (and perhaps bristle worms) clear out of the rock. Can anyone see anything BAD that can happen if I use it?
I am going to google it and see if anyone else has used it for this purpose.

[DrHank]

I've never used it for rock so I can't say. As far as your con is concerned, it isn't . Once your rock is completely cured, it's safe to put in the tank and it should not cycle again.

The cycle is the result of the decomposition of material on and in the rock which turns to ammonia and then progresses to nitrite and nitrate. When both ammonia and nitrite reach 0 in the curing vessel, it should be perfectly safe to transfer without risk of it cycling again. Just make sure to keep all rock covered with water during the curing process.

Also, you are not self obsessed or obsessed with your tank. You're just frustrated. If you keep to your current plan you should be fine. Just rember that when you have any doubts, ask before you do. Go slowly.

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by DrHank

I've never used it for rock so I can't say. As far as your con is concerned, it isn't . Once your rock is completely cured, it's safe to put in the tank and it should not cycle again.

The cycle is the result of the decomposition of material on and in the rock which turns to ammonia and then progresses to nitrite and nitrate. When both ammonia and nitrite reach 0 in the curing vessel, it should be perfectly safe to transfer without risk of it cycling again. Just make sure to keep all rock covered with water during the curing process.

Also, you are not self obsessed or obsessed with your tank. You're just frustrated. If you keep to your current plan you should be fine. Just rember that when you have any doubts, ask before you do. Go slowly.

So, when I put the cured rock in the tank with the new "live" sand and all new water, I can instantly put my CUC or some fish or some corals in there? Will there be enough bacteria in the tank in the live rock and sand to not cycle?

[lcstorc]

Personally I woild still wait a bit. Let things settle in and run some tests. If things look good after about a week, then I woild add my first addition. Monitor the levels and see if you see any spike at all. If you don't then continue to SLOWLY add.
In all things go slowly; Wait twice as long as you think you should and you should be safe.
Personally I love to see someont who is so dedicated to their reef and it's inhabitants. I think you are doing a great job at a difficult task. Hang in there. It will be worth it.

[cheeks69]

I like the plan except the Iodine dip ! I really don't see any benefit for this as you have no livestock in the tank and won't have it for a period of time which will be long enough that anything parasitic will not survive without a host. Also by using Iodine depending on how long the dip time will be you could wipe out all the fauna that comes with the LR which isn't a good thing IMHO.

PS Bristle worms are excellent detritovores and keep your SB well oxigenated which is a good thing. Very rarely will you get a sp. that could pose a threat and they're usually quite large !

[Melanie]

Lynn, I have so many questions. It seems like they are limitless! Thank you for the boost and nice compliment.

Cheeks, I think I may skip the iodine dip. It's too questionable.

Tonight all I did was scrub half the rock and put it in the bucket with salt water and a power head. I'll do the other half tomorrow after work. I'm a little tired.

Besides I'm going SLOW! Instead of killing myself every day, I'm going to just do a little at a time.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Melanie

Besides I'm going SLOW! Instead of killing myself every day, I'm going to just do a little at a time.

good plan!

[lcstorc]

Very good plan. There is no real hurry right now. Mr Firefish and herme look quite content in their temporary digs.

Call me if you run into a problem. My phone is usually with me.

[DrHank]

Keep up the good work. You're doing fine. Also, if you always check your parameters before you are going to add anything, you'll know if it's safe to add or not. I would do the same a Lynn and wait a week after you move the rock to the tank to let things stabilize. Then check params. If everything is ok at that point I would do a small addition.

Another thing about your plan is that when you begin to add, do it slowly. The original plan kind of looked like when you hit a certain poiny it was ok to go ahead and add all your fish. That isn't the case. When you add livestock do it gradually. It takes some time after the addition for the bacteria to adjust to the increase in bio load.

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by DrHank

Keep up the good work. You're doing fine. Also, if you always check your parameters before you are going to add anything, you'll know if it's safe to add or not. I would do the same a Lynn and wait a week after you move the rock to the tank to let things stabilize. Then check params. If everything is ok at that point I would do a small addition.

Another thing about your plan is that when you begin to add, do it slowly. The original plan kind of looked like when you hit a certain poiny it was ok to go ahead and add all your fish. That isn't the case. When you add livestock do it gradually. It takes some time after the addition for the bacteria to adjust to the increase in bio load.

Do you have to add corals slowly as well? The original plan has me adding almost all my corals on the same day. After the last few disasters I'm wondering if that's a good idea. If something went wrong it could be VERY expensive and cruel.

Second question, you are supposed to add fish slowly, but some species (Blue/Green Chromis) suggest you add six (6) all at the same time because they school and it's better to add them all at once to avoid hostility. Wouldn't that be the same as adding two many at once? I'm so nervous now I don't want to add more than one tiny fish at a time and maybe an invert or two at a time. Thank goodness I didn't lose any livestock in all these messes so far.

Third question: If your tank is clean of algae and you just set it up and cycled wouldn't the CUC starve if you added them before any fish or corals? Or is there microscopic life they can eat? Or do you feed them? My original plan has me adding the large clean up crew before corals or fish but I have never had an algae problem in all the years I've had the tank. Very very little algae on the tank walls that is easily removed by only a few snails.

PS Guess how many fish my LFS said I could add at once in my 72 gal. and not affect the bioload? 15!

[Melanie]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

Very good plan. There is no real hurry right now. Mr Firefish and herme look quite content in their temporary digs.

Call me if you run into a problem. My phone is usually with me.

Yeah, all my little guys in the QT seem to be doing great. I did a water change yesterday and cleaned up detritus with a turkey baster. How in the heck do I get detritus with ONE FISH? I only feed 1/4 of a cube of mysis a day! (And the floss in the HOB filter was kind of brown too before I rinsed it.)

I've been reading that several people suggest rinsing the thawed mysis cube and I'm going to try that to keep from getting so much detritus on the bottom of the QT.

You guys would be proud that for the first time ever I've been using an airstone on the new water before I put it in the tank. I noticed that the last time I did a water change firefish looked like he was breathing heavily and I worried that he wasn't getting enough oxygen in the freshly mixed water. Lesson learned! (and fortunately not the hard way because he bounced back a few minutes later with 3 airstones, a powerhead, and a HOB filter flowing)

Oh, and lastly, do you guys think Hermes needs some replacement shells in the QT? How often do they move shells? There isn't a lot of extra room in the 10 gallon with my 7 lbs. of liverock in there. He's already molted once since I got him a month ago. And I can't find any shells that are close to his size. All are substantially bigger or smaller.

[DrHank]

I have always added corals one or two at a time. They don't always get along with one another either. I can't tell you how many times I've had to change their position in the tank for that reason.

Schooling fish are almost always added at the same time however, if you wanted a school of 5, I'd add 3 first then 2 more a month later. Remember though that if you add 3 - 1" fish, you are adding 3" of fish to your tank.

I think that after your tank completes cycle you will find that algae is developing on the glass. Your CUC will also work on your rock. You would probably be safe to add some .

Congratulations, you've learned that you can't always go by what the folks at the LFS tell you. Remember, they are in business to make a profit. The more that they can sell you, the more they make. Even if they seem well intentioned, they are people too and may not always be right.

Also, don't forget that you've got some folks in your QT that would probably like to get back into the display (when it's safe to do so). That will probably be your first addition. It's bio load too.

I use a good bit of frozen food. I always rinse in DI before I feed. I have heard that it helps from introducing phosphate to the tank.

As far as Herme's replacement shells, I'd put some slightly larger than he's wearing now to try. Once you add your CUC, chances are very good that if he finds a live a live snail with the right size shell he will select it himself. They generally have dinner and a new home.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Melanie

Yeah, all my little guys in the QT seem to be doing great. I did a water change yesterday and cleaned up detritus with a turkey baster. How in the heck do I get detritus with ONE FISH? I only feed 1/4 of a cube of mysis a day! (And the floss in the HOB filter was kind of brown too before I rinsed it.)

Everything poops

[lcstorc]

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction.
Instead of the airstone in the mixing container you can use a power head to mix the water and aerate it at the same time. Just be sure the water ripples on the surface and it will be taking in oxygen. The airstone is a cool idea just trying to save you some hastle with an extra appliance at water change time.
Another thing to think about on the how many fish to add at a time question. In the beginning you want to go very slowly. After the tank gets a bit more established and you have added a fish and not seen a difference on your levels, that is when you can start with multiple fish at the same time. Still go slowly. I had a similar situation when I wanted to add two pretty large tangs at the same time. Fortunately my tank was about a year old so I just watched everything closely and probably did an extra water change or two until things were back to normal.
I would definitely not add all the corals at once. One or two at a time is plenty. Different corals have different care requirements and you want to be sure your tank is set up for them to be happy. Softies like less flow and slightly "dirty" water. SPS require high flow and extremely clean water. Those are just two examples. Within the groups there are variances for certain corals etc. Lighting also plays a very important part in what corals you get and where you place them. Then there are stinging corals and chemical warfare to consider as well.
So basically I am saying go slow on the corals as well or you will drive yourself nuts trying to figure out what is wrong with one coral while another looks good etc.
There is no reason that I know of why you cannot add your fish and corals at the same time. (I do anyway). So maybe each time you add a fish add a coral or two. Be sure to research. Look in more than one place since again everyone has their own opinion. That is one thing that is great about the forums as well. You can do some basic research and if you find conflicting or confusing information make a post. As you know you are likely to get a variety of answers. Choose the one that makes the most sense to you or the one that comes from the people you have learned to trust.
At least that is the way I run things with my reef.

[Melanie]

I think that after your tank completes cycle you will find that algae is developing on the glass. Your CUC will also work on your rock. You would probably be safe to add some .

If I'm curing the liverock in a bucket and then adding it to the tank, the tank itself would never have the cycle. The bucket would have the cycle. ???

Also, don't forget that you've got some folks in your QT that would probably like to get back into the display (when it's safe to do so). That will probably be your first addition. It's bio load too.

Yep, they go in first. Hermes will be so happy to have tons of room to scavenge and the sea star will be thrilled to have lots of room to hide.

As far as Herme's replacement shells, I'd put some slightly larger than he's wearing now to try. Once you add your CUC, chances are very good that if he finds a live a live snail with the right size shell he will select it himself. They generally have dinner and a new home.

I am just not having any luck there. No one around here carries his size. Ha ha ha. Just realize how that sounded.

I am going to do what you guys suggest on adding the corals slowly as well. It didn't feel right dumping all of these in at once:

Silver Branch Pumping Xenia
Regular Pumping Xenia
White Starburst Polyps
Colony Polyps
Cauliflower Colt Coral,
Kenya Tree Coral
Toadstool Mushroom Leather Coral,
Spaghetti Finger Leather Coral,
Green Starburst Polyp