Here We Go Again!

[bluespotjawfish]

Go Melanie Go Melanie Go Melanie

[Melanie]

Why was it bad for me to use sand I collected myself near a reef when they sell the same thing, untreated from Tampa Bay Salterwater that everyone raves about. Below from their site.

The Live Sand is placed directly on the bottom of the tank and evenly spread out. The Live Sand is full of microscopic and megascopic organisms which help in denitrification, and disposal of detritus and uneaten food.

Accept no substitutes for live sand, as it cannot be created, but must be harvested well offshore in the ocean to be clean of pollutants and silicates. Live sand collected in this manner will be a mixture of sand, shell bits, corallines, bivalves, starfish, snails, and many organisms not visible to your eye, but very much needed in your tank.

How can I kill everything in the sand and make it safe to reuse?

Is running the tank with bleach in it safe for the future inhabitants? How can I make sure I get ALL the bleach out.

I don't have chlorine in my water because my whole house is RO. I have a 500 gallon RO tank. Will I still need a de-chlorinator?

I would LOVE to take a break for a week or two or more but I can't tolerate that horrendously loud waterfall rushing sound it makes now that I put on the new pump. I'm about to smash it with a sledgehammer.

[Melanie]

I think the white thing is a sand flea and not sea lice.

Sand fleas are parasitic crustaceans common throughout the North Pacific. They are amphipods, rather than copepods. They attach themselves to other water creatures by digging into the flesh or scales and eat at the animals they are attached to. Small fish, swordfish, sunfish, flying fish, starfish, and even whales are attacked by the different kinds of parasitic crustaceans.

Flea size can vary from as small as a short grain of rice to 3 or 4 times larger. Their distribution is spotty, and they seem to be more common on sandy bottom. ‘Hot’ spots in their distribution may change from season to season or year to year. These may be very localized, such that a part of a set can be severely impacted by fleas, while another part shows no damage. Fleas appear to be more active at night, and the effect on captive fish is also more evident on longer sets. These seem to be additive, so that a long night set might have worse predation than a short night set, etc.

Flea predation starts with the presence of fleas on the surface of the body. They appear to first remove (eat?) the slime, then the top layer of the skin. The fleas seem to enter the body first through holes eaten through the skin membrane either near the eye, anus, or dorsal fins. First evidence of fleas (other than their physical presence on the body) can be a non-glossy whitened appearance in these areas where the slime and scales have been eaten. This is still a non-fatal condition.

Once the fleas have penetrated the body, we consider the fish to be dead. Penetration near the anus or eye is often evident by the presence of a hole about .25 centimeter in diameter.

[mps9506]

I wouldn't worry about sand fleas. They are great fish food. We use the larger ones for bait up in the carolinas.
I also wouldn't worry about killing everything in your sand bed. Just give it time. I think it is unlikely anything bad will be in there. And if there is anything bad in it, the couple of weeks you let your tank cycle through without fish, will allow anyhting that depends on fish as part of their l;ife cycle to die off naturally.

[goldenmean]

TBS collects their sand from their site miles off shore.
Not from the beach that not only has different life forms in it but can be otherwise easily poluted/contaminated by man.

btw.
You know the foam on the shoreline. That is the oceans protein skimmer.

[Dentoid]

Originally Posted by Melanie

Why was it bad for me to use sand I collected myself near a reef when they sell the same thing, untreated from Tampa Bay Salterwater that everyone raves about.

I used 90lbs of this Tampa Bay Saltwater sand collected off the shores of Florida, from the Gulf. I also used the Tampa Bay Saltwater LR. During my tanks cycle the ammonia never exceeded 1ppm and it cycled in about 3 weeks. There was a large diversity of life and most of it lived and is still in my tank. I have not had any problems with parasites, lice or pathogens in my tank. I challenge anyone to say that my tank is not healthy as a result. My tank is proof that the Tampa Bay Saltwater method works.

Melanie I would caution you from taking advice about your LS from anyone who has not used this type of LS. As long as you collected it far enough out and deep enough it will be fine. This is not advice, you seem to be getting enough of that, but I support your use of this LS 100%!

Don't worry about these little crustaceans you see. They are all a part of the cycle of life in your tank and the biodiversity needed by many.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Dentoid

I have not had any problems with parasites, lice or pathogens in my tank.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It is extremely unlikely you will introduce parasites or pathogens with this sand, especially if you take your time with the cycle
What I advice against is people collecting sand from the beach or from the sand up in my area because of all the nutrients it has in it and the fact our water constantly tests high for fecal coliform counts. I don't think that is an issue for the area you are getting your sand from though.

[Dentoid]

Originally Posted by mps9506

What I advice against is people collecting sand from the beach or from the sand up in my area because of all the nutrients it has in it and the fact our water constantly tests high for fecal coliform counts. I don't think that is an issue for the area you are getting your sand from though.

Eew! Are they dumping sewage in you area? Surely you wouldn't want to use sand collected from a place where it is unsafe to swim!

[lcstorc]

Sounds like agreement from several great sources.
Let it be. Let the LR cycle and wait it out. For that matter if your amonia is that high it may kill the sea lice or fleas as well. High amonia is no likely to be good for them.
Since that article does talk about them harming fish particularly in aquaria, I would keep an eye on them but not worry too much about it. Hopefully they will die off without a host or due to the amonia spike.

[Melanie]

First I want to say THANK YOU (all caps for serious emphasis) to every one who has cheered me on today via private messages and posting on this thread. I spent the better part of the morning crying and vascialting between smashing the tank with the sledgehammer, or pulling up my bootstraps and making the darn thing work.

Dr. Hank, you don't make me sad when you tell it like it is. No need to apologize. What makes me sad is when I work really hard and nothing seems to go right. YOU didn't make me have a deadly ammonia spike or buy a pump that is ten times larger than my tank can handle.

So, the sun finally came out and my disposition has changed as well. First, I took the pump to the LFS and they gave me full credit back for it even though I used for a day or two. So that credit gave me enough to buy 60 lbs. of Caribsea live sand, a bottle of live rock iodine dip, and the largest bucket of Tropic Marin pro-reef sea salt.

BEFORE I do one more thing, I'm going to see if any of you think this is a good plan. Please point out any thing that looks wrong. I'm not making a move until I get a majority consensus. I will try to be as detailed as possible.

1. Scrub my live rock in the tank with a new baby bottle brush wearing new dish gloves with no powder inside.
2. Fill a 20 gallon bucket with new, freshly mixed salt water, a heater set at 80 degrees, and a powerhead on high.
3. Fill a 5 gallon bucket half-way with new water salt water and Kent Marine's Lugol's Solution coral dip 40 drops X 2.5 = 100 drops.
4. Immerse each piece of live rock in 5 gallon bucket for 10 - 15 min.
5. Add freshly dipped live rock to the 20 gallon bucket.
6. Empty my tank of water and sand and pumps and skimmers etc. Discard sand and old water.
7. Clean tank, pumps, skimmer, sump, overflow, etc. with a mixture of 1 pt. white vinegar, 20 pts. water. (5% solution) (I thought of using the bleach mixture but I don't know that I'd be able to totally rinse it thoroughly since I can't take the tank outside to hose it off. I'd have to use rags.)
8. Rinse everything in RO water.
9. Air dry for four to six days. Scrub live rock again during that period and do a 100% water change in the bucket.
10. Live rock rubble and bamboni rock will arrive.
11. Reassemble tank. Leave bioball wet/dry filter empty. Put new blue filter floss after overflow in wet/dry filter. Put new foam block after trickle filter/before pump & skimmer.
12. Add 60 lbs. Carribsea Arag Alive Sand
13. Fill tank with 80 gallons (72 gallon display and 8+ gallons for sump)freshly mixed Tropic Marin Pro Reef.
14. Turn on pump, heater (to 78 degrees), skimmer.
15. Scrub large live rock & base rock again and add it to the tank.
16. Cure newly arrived live rock rubble and bamboni base rock with this method:

• Place the live rock in a new 30-gallon plastic garbage can. Consider adding bottom drains to the container to speed draining and water changes.
• Completely cover the rock with freshly mixed saltwater, with a specific gravity of 1.021 - 1.025.
• Use a heater and keep the water temperature near 80 degrees to speed die off.
• Provide constant water movement with a power head or air stone.
• Keep the area dimly lit to prevent algae blooms.
• Perform 100% water changes twice weekly.
• Gently scrub the rock with a new nylon bristle brush or toothbrush between water changes to remove any white film or dead material.
• When the water conditions stabilize and ammonia and nitrite tests are zero, the rock is ready to be placed into the display aquarium.

17. Add the rubble to the wet-dry area and bamboni to the display. Arrange in my desired way.
18. Come back to RS and ask what to do next.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Dentoid

Eew! Are they dumping sewage in you area? Surely you wouldn't want to use sand collected from a place where it is unsafe to swim!

Well hog farming is a big industry in NC and whenever a hurricane or severe rains come through there is a good chance of these places flooding raw pig poo into the rivers which feed into the ocean.
Doesn't happen all the time, but often enough for the NC Division of MArine Fisheries to shut down the shellfish harvesting and recomend people to stay off the beach and definitely stay out of the rivers and estuaries until mother nature can heal herself. Some of these area will accumulate all kinds of nutrients (think fertilizer) especially near the river and estuary mouths.
FWIW I have surfed after the hurricanes, Depending on the areas, you can be fine (take into account the currents and which why the nutrients are spread). Still there are many accounts of surfers getting sick taking advantage of the good surf after a hurricane, I don't know if those are linked directly with the nasties put in the water, but we always hear about it on the surfer forums after hurricanes or bad storms.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Melanie

First I want to say THANK YOU (all caps for serious emphasis) to every one who has cheered me on today via private messages and posting on this thread. I spent the better part of the morning crying and vascialting between smashing the tank with the sledgehammer, or pulling up my bootstraps and making the darn thing work.

Dr. Hank, you don't make me sad when you tell it like it is. No need to apologize. What makes me sad is when I work really hard and nothing seems to go right. YOU didn't make me have a deadly ammonia spike or buy a pump that is ten times larger than my tank can handle.

So, the sun finally came out and my disposition has changed as well. First, I took the pump to the LFS and they gave me full credit back for it even though I used for a day or two. So that credit gave me enough to buy 60 lbs. of Caribsea live sand, a bottle of live rock iodine dip, and the largest bucket of Tropic Marin sea salt.

BEFORE I do one more thing, I'm going to see if any of you think this is a good plan. Please point out any thing that looks wrong. I'm not making a move until I get a majority consensus. I will try to be as detailed as possible.

1. Scrub my live rock in the tank with a new baby bottle brush wearing new dish gloves with no powder inside.
2. Fill a 20 gallon bucket with new, freshly mixed salt water, a heater set at 80 degrees, and a powerhead on high.
3. Fill a 5 gallon bucket half-way with new water salt water and Kent Marine's Lugol's Solution coral dip 40 drops X 2.5 = 100 drops.
4. Immerse each piece of live rock in 5 gallon bucket for 10 - 15 min.
5. Add freshly dipped live rock to the 20 gallon bucket.
6. Empty my tank of water and sand and pumps and skimmers etc.
7. Clean tank, pumps, skimmer, sump, overflow, etc. with a mixture of 1 pt. white vinegar, 20 pts. water. (5% solution) (I thought of using the bleach mixture but I don't know that I'd be able to totally rinse it thoroughly since I can't take the tank outside to hose it off. I'd have to use rags.)
8. Rinse everything in RO water.
9. Air dry for four to six days. Scrub live rock again during that period and do a 100% water change in the bucket.
10. Live rock rubble and bamboni rock will arrive.
11. Reassemble tank. Leave bioball wet/dry filter empty. Put new blue filter floss after overflow in wet/dry filter. Put new foam block after trickle filter/before pump & skimmer.
12. Add 60 lbs. Carribsea Arag Alive Sand
13. Fill tank with 80 gallons (72 gallon display and 8+ gallons for sump)freshly mixed Tropic Marin Pro Reef.
14. Turn on pump, heater (to 78 degrees), skimmer.
15. Scrub large live rock & base rock again and add it to the tank.
16. Cure newly arrived live rock rubble and bamboni base rock with this method:

• Place the live rock in a new 30-gallon plastic garbage can. Consider adding bottom drains to the container to speed draining and water changes.
• Completely cover the rock with freshly mixed saltwater, with a specific gravity of 1.021 - 1.025.
• Use a heater and keep the water temperature near 80 degrees to speed die off.
• Provide constant water movement with a power head or air stone.
• Keep the area dimly lit to prevent algae blooms.
• Perform 100% water changes twice weekly.
• Gently scrub the rock with a new nylon bristle brush or toothbrush between water changes to remove any white film or dead material.
• When the water conditions stabilize and ammonia and nitrite tests are zero, the rock is ready to be placed into the display aquarium.

17. Add the rubble to the wet-dry area and bamboni to the display. Arrange in my desired way.
18. Come back to RS and ask what to do next.

Sounds liek a plan to me You got your work cut out for you, but trust me it's half the fun

[lcstorc]

Sounds like a plan to me. I like the vinegar idea better than the bleach as well. Bleach would just scare me. Then again I tend to be paranoid.
The only thing I would possibly change is how long you leave the current LR in the bucket to cure. It may take more than the 4-6 days you are planning. That may be enough time but may not. I would keep testing and changing the water in the container until you get some decent readings. The base rock you already have is unlikely to have much if any life in it so I would probably leave that out to dry again and re-use it when you aquascape the tank. Should save you some room in the container of rock that is curing.
I am also unsure of the Lugols. I have only heard of using it for corals. Doesn't mean it is wrong to do by any means. Just that I have never heard of dipping the LR in Lugols. Hopefully someone who knows can pipe in on that one.

[mps9506]

Thats true you want to let your live rock decide how long it takes to cure by measuring the ammonia in the water. We usually cure live rock for about two weeks when I ran a fish store with daily 50%-100% water changes on it, although that isn't really feasible for most people and I wouldn't expect most folks to do it that often.

[DrHank]

Sounds like a good plan. I've been in hiding today (was going to stay there until you felt better). Vinegar (acetic acid) is milder than Bleach (Sodium hydroxide). It will probably work very well. I have just used Bleach so many times it doesn't scare me. You neutralize it's effects with Water dechlorinator ( Sodium Thiosulfite). Stick with the vinegar and you should be fine.

The only thing that I might suggest is that instead of Agri alive sand, I would use Aragamax Sand. My reason is that I can't see how alive it can be if it's sealed in a plastic bag with no gas exchange. There isn't anything wrong with Agri alive but any sand that you put into your tank is going to become alive after a short period of time because of the live rock.

Take your time. Learn, learn, learn. I still have to tell myself to do it from time to time. I still make mistakes. I try to make little ones.

I'm hoping my angelfish makes it but in this hobby you can never be sure. You do all you can. I'm sure that you didn't know but when my fish got sick, I asked for help on 4 sites. I got a lot of responses and yet bottom line is that sometimes no matter how hard you try, things don't work out. At least I got the fish out of the display, The Ick appears to have been secondary and minimal, and everything in the main tank seems ok.

You are doing great for being involved for such a short period of time. Think of all that you have learned Take your time and every now and then, stop to enjoy. I'm sure your QT is doing great. Wish I could say the same.

AND STOP BEATING YOURSELF UP. YOU'RE DOING GREAT!!!