PH, Calcium, and Aragonite

lgerold · 11-05-2006, 01:55 PM

Hi!

You've read about my predicament with my tank in another posting. Got another question, relating to my ph concerns.

I read in a thread started by Michiana regarding cleaning live rock, the following:

Quote:

most of the rock we use is made of aragonite so it starts to dissolve at a ph of 7.8.

This makes me wonder:

The reason it's been suggested that I don't use Kalkwasser to bring my PH up (from 7.6) is that my calcium level is too high. Right now it's at 560. I've been doing aggressive water changes in an attempt to bring it down, but it has even been going up slightly.

So, at a PH of 7.6, is it possible that the calcium is staying up there stubbornly because my substrate and rockwork is dissolving, bringing the calcium level up?

If so, would it actually be better to use some kalkwasser to bring the ph up above 7.8? Kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation!

Lucy

lgerold · 11-06-2006, 01:59 AM

Bump!

Warnberg · 11-06-2006, 09:33 AM

If you calcium level is 560 what is your alk at? Usually you need a lower ph than that to get arogonite to truly disolve. To raise ph I would use baked baking soda, mix about a cup with about a gallon of RO/DI water and slowly drip this into your sump.

I would suggest you keep going with the water changes, check a batch of water before the change and see where it is at. Also you may want to have you LFS test your water as well to be sure.

TDEVIL · 11-06-2006, 11:21 AM

i would also suspect you test kit as w/ doing regular w/c should help to lower it unless you alk is way off, so i would agree to have your LFS test a sample.

have you seen this article (didnt see your other post)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php

Jay

cheeks69 · 11-06-2006, 01:26 PM

Do you have a DSB and is it aragonite based ? Which salt mix are you using ? Which test kit are you using to measure the ph ? What are you dosing or supplementing ?

If you have an established DSB I'm sure the ph in those zones would be much lower than than the 7.6 your getting and probably dissolve the substrate but it wouldn't increase only the calcium levels but also alk and usually calcium at the 560 level there would be precipitation going on.

prow · 11-06-2006, 01:42 PM

that is a ture statment about the ph. however, a low ph can be somewhat offset by a high alk. what is your alk? here is a good link to correct Ca and alk issues;
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

here is one for ph issues;
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm

and here is good one that might help with choosing a supplement;
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

before you do anything i would check all you parameters and try to find what the issue is. after reading the links i gave you can see the ph issue can be from different causes and trying fix a ph related problem with this or that could actually make things worse. (ex. low ph due to low dissolve O2 or high CO2 levels needs a different solution than a low ph due do a high Ca+ level) sometimes your better off doing nothing. to you in your situation we need to know all your tank parameters, including the swing (difference of high and low levels within 24 hours. a night and days reading pf your ph).

Boomer · 11-06-2006, 02:04 PM

Nice posts guys

cheeks69 · 11-06-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boomer

Nice posts guys

You have taught us well Master

Boomer · 11-06-2006, 02:44 PM

I try

boozeman · 11-06-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheeks69

You have taught us well Master

prow · 11-06-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheeks69

You have taught us well Master

lgerold · 11-06-2006, 08:25 PM

Hi!

Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm going to do some studying on the links you included. I've answered some of your questions below:

Salt is currently Reef Crystals by Marineland. All spring and summer, I used Instant Ocean. The tank was originally set up using Coralife's salt.

Today's Parameters are:

PH: 7.81
Calc: 580
Alk: 4.90
KH: 13.8
Nitrates: 8.8 (down from somewhere over 44, good news!)
Phos: .20
Salinity: 1.025

It occurred to me finally that perhaps my RO/DI is not working efficiently. So, I checked the water I am collecting for tomorrow's 25 gallon water change. The good or bad news is that calc is 0, alk is 0, phos is 0, and nitrates are 0. It ain't the water!

Testing kits:
Calcium: Aquarium Pharm. I recently purchased a new test (same company) because I was nearing the end of the last bottle #2. I tested the water with both test kits today, and the results were exactly the same, 580.
Alk: Salifert
Nitrates: LaMotte
Phospates: LaMotte (ordered a salifert because this test does not measure below .10)
Salinity: one of those darned plastic thingys.

I ordered an electronic salinity meter which should be here in a few days. That will be handy! I also ordered salifert's iodine test and magnesium test.

I also ordered two 250 watt metal halide set ups to add to the new canapy we're finishing. The new canapy will have about 500 watts PC lighting, and the 500 watts metal halide. Also moonlights. And, we are putting in three fans to keep the air moving through the fixture to increase air flow over the water and to keep the thing cool.

Yes, I do have a DSB. I varies from a depth of 2 1/2 inches in some areas, to 5 inches in others. The substrate is mainly Arag Alive Bahama Oolite.

No precipitation of calcium. The Alk was actually down to 2.74 on the 20th, which I raised using only one does of super buffer. I was under the maybe mis-informed idea that with a depressed ph, in order for the corals to utiolize the calcium, a somewhat higher alk would be helpful.

I'll be on to my reading!

Lucy

lgerold · 11-06-2006, 08:40 PM

Hi again!

I should also have mentioned that the ph values are based on a pinpoint digital meter, calibrated using 4.01, 7.01, and 10.01. That value also is nearly the same as the level given by our local water testing facility, guaranteed to be within .01 ph.

Lucy

lgerold · 11-06-2006, 09:14 PM

Me again! I knew I had read somewhere that when the PH is low, it's best for both alk and calc to be on the higher end of normal.

So, it looks like for now the best thing is just to wait it out, and to continue with the aggressive water changes.

Lucy

prow · 11-07-2006, 12:56 AM

sounds like your getting a handle on it. i agree the best thing to do for Ca/alk and ph now is nothing

well how low does your ph get. what is it in the am.
nitrates yup water changes and all that other stuff. do you know what caused it to get over 44

i am supprised you have not got any precipitate yet.

11-06-2006, 01:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
lgerold Scopas Tang Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Brainerd, Mn Posts: 473 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Bump!

11-06-2006, 09:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
Warnberg Acropora Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 1,911 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite If you calcium level is 560 what is your alk at? Usually you need a lower ph than that to get arogonite to truly disolve. To raise ph I would use baked baking soda, mix about a cup with about a gallon of RO/DI water and slowly drip this into your sump. I would suggest you keep going with the water changes, check a batch of water before the change and see where it is at. Also you may want to have you LFS test your water as well to be sure. __________________ Dave 240 Gallon Tall Tencor (96"L x 30"T x 18"W) 4 250 Watt MH XM10K bulbs 2-54 Watt T5 Actinic Euro-Reef CS8-2-RC Jetstream 1 Calcium Reactor 4 Tunze Turbelle stream 6000 power heads 7095 Tunze controller

11-06-2006, 11:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
TDEVIL Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marion, INDIANA Posts: 1,170 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite i would also suspect you test kit as w/ doing regular w/c should help to lower it unless you alk is way off, so i would agree to have your LFS test a sample. have you seen this article (didnt see your other post) http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rhf/index.php Jay

11-06-2006, 01:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
cheeks69 Wannabe Guru Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Northeast Posts: 6,618 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Do you have a DSB and is it aragonite based ? Which salt mix are you using ? Which test kit are you using to measure the ph ? What are you dosing or supplementing ? If you have an established DSB I'm sure the ph in those zones would be much lower than than the 7.6 your getting and probably dissolve the substrate but it wouldn't increase only the calcium levels but also alk and usually calcium at the 560 level there would be precipitation going on. __________________ Robert My Cube “A spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe—a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.” Albert Einstein

11-06-2006, 01:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
prow Manta Ray Join Date: May 2005 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 3,854 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite that is a ture statment about the ph. however, a low ph can be somewhat offset by a high alk. what is your alk? here is a good link to correct Ca and alk issues; http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm here is one for ph issues; http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...e2002/chem.htm and here is good one that might help with choosing a supplement; http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm before you do anything i would check all you parameters and try to find what the issue is. after reading the links i gave you can see the ph issue can be from different causes and trying fix a ph related problem with this or that could actually make things worse. (ex. low ph due to low dissolve O2 or high CO2 levels needs a different solution than a low ph due do a high Ca+ level) sometimes your better off doing nothing. to you in your situation we need to know all your tank parameters, including the swing (difference of high and low levels within 24 hours. a night and days reading pf your ph).

11-06-2006, 02:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,072 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Nice posts guys __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

11-06-2006, 02:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,072 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite I try __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

11-06-2006, 08:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
lgerold Scopas Tang Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Brainerd, Mn Posts: 473 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Hi! Thanks for the comments everyone. I'm going to do some studying on the links you included. I've answered some of your questions below: Salt is currently Reef Crystals by Marineland. All spring and summer, I used Instant Ocean. The tank was originally set up using Coralife's salt. Today's Parameters are: PH: 7.81 Calc: 580 Alk: 4.90 KH: 13.8 Nitrates: 8.8 (down from somewhere over 44, good news!) Phos: .20 Salinity: 1.025 It occurred to me finally that perhaps my RO/DI is not working efficiently. So, I checked the water I am collecting for tomorrow's 25 gallon water change. The good or bad news is that calc is 0, alk is 0, phos is 0, and nitrates are 0. It ain't the water! Testing kits: Calcium: Aquarium Pharm. I recently purchased a new test (same company) because I was nearing the end of the last bottle #2. I tested the water with both test kits today, and the results were exactly the same, 580. Alk: Salifert Nitrates: LaMotte Phospates: LaMotte (ordered a salifert because this test does not measure below .10) Salinity: one of those darned plastic thingys. I ordered an electronic salinity meter which should be here in a few days. That will be handy! I also ordered salifert's iodine test and magnesium test. I also ordered two 250 watt metal halide set ups to add to the new canapy we're finishing. The new canapy will have about 500 watts PC lighting, and the 500 watts metal halide. Also moonlights. And, we are putting in three fans to keep the air moving through the fixture to increase air flow over the water and to keep the thing cool. Yes, I do have a DSB. I varies from a depth of 2 1/2 inches in some areas, to 5 inches in others. The substrate is mainly Arag Alive Bahama Oolite. No precipitation of calcium. The Alk was actually down to 2.74 on the 20th, which I raised using only one does of super buffer. I was under the maybe mis-informed idea that with a depressed ph, in order for the corals to utiolize the calcium, a somewhat higher alk would be helpful. I'll be on to my reading! Lucy

11-06-2006, 08:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
lgerold Scopas Tang Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Brainerd, Mn Posts: 473 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Hi again! I should also have mentioned that the ph values are based on a pinpoint digital meter, calibrated using 4.01, 7.01, and 10.01. That value also is nearly the same as the level given by our local water testing facility, guaranteed to be within .01 ph. Lucy

11-06-2006, 09:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
lgerold Scopas Tang Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Brainerd, Mn Posts: 473 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite Me again! I knew I had read somewhere that when the PH is low, it's best for both alk and calc to be on the higher end of normal. So, it looks like for now the best thing is just to wait it out, and to continue with the aggressive water changes. Lucy

11-07-2006, 12:56 AM	#15 (permalink)
prow Manta Ray Join Date: May 2005 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 3,854 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: PH, Calcium, and Aragonite sounds like your getting a handle on it. i agree the best thing to do for Ca/alk and ph now is nothing well how low does your ph get. what is it in the am. nitrates yup water changes and all that other stuff. do you know what caused it to get over 44 i am supprised you have not got any precipitate yet.

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