PH concerns - long intro!

[lgerold]

Hey!

I started our reef tank in early February. We've been adding corals, anenomes, fish, and other inhabitants since starting the tank. Physical details below:

125 gallon long tank (6 ft long, 24 inches tall.)
29 gallon gallon tank along side as refugium w/pc lighting (55 watts) 24/7.
2 1/2" depth of sand bed - combination of oolitic and aragonite.
Lots of live rock - I suppose 300 pounds is not an exaggeration.
PC lighting - 325 watts actinic 9 hours daily. 195 watts 50/50 5 hours daily.
2 protein skimmers - started with Bak-Pak style, added an AquaC Remora
Water flow provided by:
3 250 GPH powerheads positioned behind the LR.
450 GPH overflow from refugium
1200 GPH (I'm sure reduced to more like 900 GPH) flow over the top and
behind the LR using a SCWD (and 2 sections of 2 1/2 foot loc-
linespray bar) , alternating right and left side of tank.
Marineland HOT filter used as carbon filter without filter pad.
Temp maintained at 77 degrees
Top Off by RO/DI water
Salinity kept between 1.0235 and 1.024

Present inhabitants: Accumulated since February.
fish: Large yellow tang, small hippo tang, royal gramma, three spot
wrasse, firefish, lawnmower blenny, 4 blue green chromis, 2 tomato
clowns, scooter blenny, mandarin, 2 cleaner gobies, and some sort
of bottom dwelling goby.
90 or more assorted snails (I've lost count of how many we've
bought, and how many have committed suicide by leaping to their
death on the sand)
20 tiny hermit crabs
3 emerald crabs
2 porcelain crabs
1 strawberry crab
2 serpent stars
3 feather dusters
4 anenomes - one unknown (grew from live rock, NOT aiptasia), 1 carpet
(new), one beaded, one condy (tentacles quite short though).
1 flame scallop

Corals - lots of mushrooms, 3 colonies of buttons, 2 open brain corals,
1 long tentacled plate coral, 1 really long tentacled fungia, 1 short
short tentacled plate coral, 2 leather corals, 1 colony of blastomussa,
1 large elegance coral, bubble coral, hammer coral, galaxia, 3 colonies
of star polyps (large colonies), maze brain coral, xenia, scroll,
1 ricordia, and 1 cynaria. Also, two orange sponges - ball and branch.

As for the appearance/health of the tank, shortly after starting the tank up, we ran through an outbreak of diatoms, followed by some cyano problems. After the cyano (which we cured by adding alot more water movement), the only problem has been with a stubborn case of hair algae. That has actually been slowly improving over the last 2 months or so. At it's worst, about 70% of the bare rock was covered by hair algae - and now it's down to about 20%.

When we started the tank, PH was a huge issue. Perhaps. My test kits showed that the water from the tap was 7.8 PH. We started the tank using tap water, not RO/DI. Water in the tank ran from 7.6 to 7.8 Test kits were new, Tetra and Nutrafin. Not the best tests, but they concerned me. I took a sample of water to Minneapolis (3 hour drive) and a fish store there, staffed by an incredibly knowledgeable guy, checked the water and his tests showed 8.2. Good! I bought an electronic PH meter, calibrated it, and the PH has been running consistently 8.0 to 8.2. That is, until the PH meter's batteries ran out on me. I hadn't checked the PH for a while now. (Beating head on wall.)

Before figuring out that the PH was actually (or maybe) not low, as a foolish beginner, I attempted to boost the PH using some powdered PH boosting chemical. The PH refused to budge and of course the ALk and Calc hit the roof (calc 560, alk 5.71). Precip was awful for a few weeks. The alk has been falling all summer, and by last week, it had fallen to 2.74. Interestingly, the calc has not fallen, and tends to run between 520 and 560 mg/l. I suppose that the elevated calcium level has been due to using purple up for fairly religiously for about 6 weeks, until about 6 weeks ago. BTW - it works! The coralline algae grew much faster with it than without.

My concern is with the PH. I realized the other day, when the alk tested at 2.74, that PH could be a problem, with the lower buffering ability. I added one dose of Kent's supper buffer, which brought the alk to 4.5, which I'm more comfortable with, since the calc is still running high. Of course, I had to run out and buy some batteries for my dead PH meter, and after re-calibrating the PH meter, my PH is showed a frightening 7.6 this morning. Right now, light on full for 5 hours, the PH reads 8.0. I checked the PH using the tetra and nutrafin tests, and they both show 7.5, am and pm. The PH meter is acting funny, giving erratic results, so I can't count on that thing either. I'm going to have to take it into a lab tomorrow to hopefully find some more calibrating fluid.

The fish and corals and anenomes are happy as can be. Full polyp extension, happy fish, etc. New corals that we've acquired over the last month have transitioned smoothly.

We've had trouble with the nitrates and phosphates. I ordered a phosphate filter which just came in, and I'll be installing that soon into the refugium. I also ordered a sulfur de-nitrifier. The expert in Minneapolis tells me I have been overfeeding, which is probably accounting for my .5 phos and 44 ppm nitrates. With any luck, I'll have less trouble with that hair algae when the nitrates and phos drops as it should with more water changes and the new filters.

I'm wondering about Kalkwasser? Should I be considering using it in my top off water (1 gallon per day)? I fear that my already high calcium may be a problem with kalkwasser. I stopped using the Purple Up about 6 weeks ago, so I would expect the calcium level to begin dropping soon, though it stayed high before the use of Purple Up too.

I'll let you all know what I find out about that PH. It's hard to believe it can be that hard to get an accurate result!

Lucy

[Woodstock]

I suspect your PH monitor is incorrect as are your nutrafin/tetra test kits. Did the PH probe dry out? If so, it is no longer any good. Did you use fresh calibration fluids? They are only meant to be used once.

I would not begin using kalkwasser until the ca drops to normal levels. I use kalkwasser for all top offs and love the stuff! Although an alk adjustment is needed occassionally.

BTW.. welcome to Reef Sanctuary!!

[lgerold]

Hi!

Thanks for replying. I do expect that the ph monitor bulb did dry out. Can that be corrected? Calibration fluids were fresh - I used ph 7.01 and ph 4.01 to attempt to calibrate.

Darn - I'll probably need a new ph meter.

Any other advice is very much appreciated.


Thanks!

Lucy

[Woodstock]

Unfortunately, once the PH probe has dryed out there is nothing you can do except replace it. Their life expectancy even under optimal conditions is only about a year and one half.

[lgerold]

I took a sample of water in this morning to a local research facility that tests water. For $12, they gave me a PH reading on my water, which was 7.85. No great, but considering the lights were out on the tank, I at least know that we're not heading into a crash situation.

I'm definitely buying a new meter!

Lucy

[cheeks69]

IMHO your tank is has become unbalanced due to the use of these additives. I would do a very large water change and and just drip kalk daily since it's a balanced cal/alk additive and has the ability to export phosphates. I wouldn't get a new ph monitor just replace the probe and calibrate and you should be good to go. Also the calibration fluids you should be using is the 7.00 and 10.00 not the 4.00 those are for FW.

The addition of kalk may not be enough if you have alot of stony corals...if that's the case then dose either cal or alk but test FIRST don't just add without knowing how much your system is taking up and do it slowly otherwise you might get precipitation. I recommend you get some Salifert test kits particularly the KH/calcium.

[lgerold]

Hi!

Sounds like good advice ;-) I do agree that the Purple Up additive is probably responsible for the unbalance between the calcium and alkalinity. BTW, the calcium is now down to 520, a nice drop in a week from 560.

Would there be any merit of adding more alkalinity to balance the high calcium?

I've really cut back on the feedings, basically only feeding the fish right now. Phos has dropped already since cutting back on Thursday to .4 ppm. That's without the phosphate filter I haven't had a chance to install.

Thanks!

Lucy

[lgerold]

Hey gang!

You may remember that I was having trouble getting an accurate PH for my tank a week or so ago.

I went ahead and bought a new Pinpoint Monitor. Calibrated it using 7, 4, and 10 ph. Tank PH under full on lighting (for 5 hours) is 7.65. Rrrr.

Tank params are:
PH - 7.65
Calc - 540 mg/l (that's been holding pretty steady)
Alk - 13.6 KH or 4.85 meq/l
Phos - 0 to 0.1 ppm
Nitrates - 26.4 (falling from over 50 ppm)
Sal - 1.0235

I still struggle with hair algae, though I think it may be improving due to lower nitrates. Of course, I'd love a miracle cure.

I think it's quite possible that the ph has been running this way for months.

Inhabitants look happy etc.

I suppose that the ph is a major contributing factor to the algae?

So, what to do to bring up the PH safely? I am considering the use of Kalkwasser, but I fear that higher than normal calcium level. Which evil is worse? Too much calc or too low ph...Hmmmm.

Help!

Lucy
125 gallon long tank (6 ft long, 24 inches tall.)
29 gallon gallon tank along side as refugium w/pc lighting (55 watts) 24/7.
2 1/2" depth of sand bed - combination of oolitic and aragonite.
Lots of live rock - I suppose 300 pounds is not an exaggeration.
PC lighting - 325 watts actinic 9 hours daily. 195 watts 50/50 5 hours daily.
2 protein skimmers - started with Bak-Pak style, added an AquaC Remora
Water flow provided by:
3 250 GPH powerheads positioned behind the LR.
450 GPH overflow from refugium
1200 GPH (I'm sure reduced to more like 900 GPH) flow over the top and
behind the LR using a SCWD (and 2 sections of 2 1/2 foot loc-
linespray bar) , alternating right and left side of tank.
Marineland HOT filter used as carbon filter without filter pad.
Temp maintained at 77 degrees
Top Off by RO/DI water
Salinity kept between 1.0235 and 1.024
Turbo UV sterilizer

[cheeks69]

Have you done a large water change ? Which salt are you using ? The room where your tank is located is it near a window, does it get fresh air ? I wouldn't drip kalk until you have your parameters stable and then when you drip slowly there's no need to fear of overdosing because as I've said kalk is a balanced cal/alk additive and only so much will remain in solution. Keeping your alk high in the 8.4 range will help eliminate your algae problem.

[lgerold]

Hi!

I probably should do more water changes, but they are difficult. I've been changing about 10 gallons every week or so.

Will a large water change reduce the calcium, or is the calcium level due to excess calcium in the substrate, etc?

Salt is Instant Ocean.

I've considered that the ph could be low due to inadequate ventilation, but I really have a hard time believing that, since our home is pretty good sized (2000 square feet), very open, window open at night, etc.

We are completing the build on a new hood for this tank, with several fans. If ventilation is indeed the issue, I expect this will help.

Alk is now at 4.85 meq/l. You would increase it more? Or do you mean KH? KH is 13.6.

Any way to boost the ph without raising the calcium?

How can the animals look so healthy with such a low ph?

Lucy

[Boomer]

Calibrated it using 7, 4, and 10 ph.


How did you do this exactly ? Is pH meter running on AC or DC power ? If you took your probe and just put it in some pH 7 calibration solution what does it read ? Do it in a different room.

I do not buy your pH of 7.65. With that pH and Alk your CO2 is like 3.5 ppm and that is 7 x normal seawater.

If you can take out 10 gal of water and get some SeaChem Labs "Marine Buffer", put 1/2 teaspoon pre-dissolved in a glass of water and pour it slowly into the 10 gal. Observe what you see exactly as you do this. In 1 hr measure the pH, if it is not 8.3 something is wrong with that meter/probe..

Your Alk is already to high. How did it get that high ?

[lgerold]

Hi!

Unfortunately, I do think that the reading is accurate. I took a sample in to a water testing lab (they contract to do well testing, city water testing, etc) and their test showed the PH at 7.85 (dark photoperiod.) They guarantee accuracy to plus or minus 0.01. I figured, since the water was taken at 7 am, after lights out (except on refugium) for 9 hours, that the PH would be at it's lowest, and that when the lights were on (as they were yesterday) for several hours, that the PH would raise to 8 or above. Didn't happen.

I calibrated the new meter using PH 7.01, 4.01, and 10.01. I first used the 7.01 and 4.01 that came with the meter, and figured since the PH is supposed to be to the right of 7, I should probably calibrate using 10.01. Went to do that and it was already calibrated perfectly.

The Pinpoint PH Meter is running on a brand new 9 volt battery. The reading is steady, after a few seconds of jumping around when first put into a solution. The meter is running constantly now on the tank.

My alk has been dropping all summer since last spring when I first set up the tank (after erroneously adding buffer in an ignorant attempt to raise my low ph). Last spring, my alk was up to 5.71.

So, last week, when the alk fell to 2.74, I used one dose of Super Buffer to raise the alk, which went up first to 4.5, and a bit more within a week to the current level of 4.85. I expected much less of an alk boost. I know (I think?) that at a lower PH, higher alk and calcium levels are needed to make the calcium available to the corals.

I'll check the meter on the mixture you suggested.

Thanks!

Lucy

[Warnberg]

I would suggest you stop adding stuff to your tank and start doing water changes, about 20% per week, use RO/DI water. If I recall correctly IO has a calc level of 380, so it will naturally start lowering your calcium levels for you.

[Boomer]

Lucy, based on your last statements, I would then do as Dave has suggested.

I now fully believe that Bob's statement;

IMHO your tank is has become unbalanced due to the use of these additives


is 100% correct

You are going to need about 3 large water changes

[lgerold]

Thanks! That will be my project this hallween night, (and for the next two nights.) I'll let you know how it goes!

Lucy