Palytoxin?

[Woodstock]

Boomer,

I am wondering which zoanthid varieties have the dangerous palytoxins; all, some, only a rare few??

[Warnberg]

Wood, I know I'm not boomer, however my understanding is they all have it but in different levels of concentration.

[Charlie97L]

i was under the impression, that only a few had large concentrations of it... someone official had stated that, i'll try to find the article.

here's a good one by bourneman, but he doesn't mention concentrations.

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquariu...98/0198_1.html

my point was that if they ALL had it, a lot of aquarists and fraggers would be dropping like flies, seeing as a fatal dose is less than 5 micrograms. not a lot. at the very least, we'd be seeing many people being poisoned. i mean honestly, with the popularity of zoas, and the less than expert fraggers out there, you'd think there would be incidents. all i've ever read of was one person's dog dying. i think i've read about 2-3 serious coral poisonings, period, online, and those were both from open brain stings that induced heart attacks.

http://www.cbwinfo.com/Biological/Toxins/Palytoxin.html

this says only a few have it in high concentrations... now, no doubt, all zoanthids are toxic, but are they all deadly? i mean, most coral is toxic, period. i had a reaction to monti cap slime last week. tingly hand for about an hour.

i'm also under the impression that only the Genus "palythoa" of the family zoanthidae carries the toxin... and zoanthus does not. that would make sense, given it is "paly" toxin. while palythoa are common in aquaria, zoanthus generally provides us with the bright color morphs that are very popular.

[Stevenmi]

Great info charlie....karma to you.

It is really best to put on your rubbers if you will be touching any cridders.. just to be safe.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...003/invert.htm

Steve

[Charlie97L]

steve, also a great read... that cleared up my questions... mostly found in palythoa, but has been known to occur in zoathus as well.

i'm still skeptical about it's concentration. i mean, a micro gram? that's like, a particle 1/1000 the size of a grain of sand. and it's soluble. 4-6 of those = death for an adult human male.

i mean, honestly, people aren't that careful. if it was as common as it's implied, people would think twice about owning zoanthids.

[Stevenmi]

I think the important thing here to remember is that most that have had issues also has a pathway for absorbing the poision too. A cut or scratch, a wipe of the eye or a nose pick(ewww gross)..lol after touching. as noted in the artical most with this very complex toxin are NOT offered in the trade.

A little off topic but,
We have a local place here in michigan that now refuses to offer rock and corals that have not been in there quarenteen system, why ? ...well a few years back a guy demanded a rock shippment from asia of 1500 pounds direct and ended up getting a sea snake in his living room. This same place does have known toxic palythoa but are not offered for sale gigantica, vivica(sp.)
Bottons a large as baseballs!!

Steve

[Boomer]

Charlie, well done and karma for you.

I do not know where that 5 ug came from but on the other link

It is 100 nanograms or.0.1 micrograms or .0001 mg. However, the is ug per kilogram body weight.

If you weigh 200 lbs, then 200 / 2.2 = 91 kg x .1 micrograms = 9.1 micrograms, so that is close to your 5 ug or .0005 mg.

All this seems to be in error to me on LD50 ....see below

Also remember these where all injected dosage. This is not like getting it on your hands unless you have a open wound and it gets into your body. And you do not want to be licking your fingers



Palytoxin is one of the most toxic non-peptide substances known, second to only Maitotoxin, which is from a dinoflagellate.

There is no reported cases of human poisoning, but animal test suggest that the toxin constricts bloodvessels in the heart.

LD50 Palytoxin
(these **seem** to be right)
.08 micrograms/kg = monkeys:

.2 microgram/kg = cats

.4 micrograms/kg = mice.

1270 microgram/kg. = mice, through skin as adsorption

~68 micrograms.068 mg = Human IV lethal dose.

The mode of action for Palytoxin is irreversible depolarization of the nerve and muscle tissue, possibly affecting sodium channels. Higher concentrations disintegrate red blood cells.

ABSTRACT:
Mechanism of palytoxin-induced [3H]norepinephrine release from a rat pheochromocytoma cell line

M Tatsumi, M Takahashi and Y Ohizumi

Palytoxin, isolated from the zoanthid Palytoha species, is one of the most potent marine toxins. Palytoxin (1 nM-1 microM) caused a release of [3H]norepinephrine from clonal rat pheochromocytoma cells in a concentration-dependent manner. This releasing action of palytoxin was markedly inhibited or abolished by Co2+ or Ca2+ -free medium, but was not modified by tetrodotoxin. The release of [3H]norepinephrine induced by a low concentration (30 nM) of palytoxin was abolished in sodium- free medium and increased as the external Na+ concentrations were increased from 3 to 100 nM, but the release induced by a high concentration (1 microM) was unaffected by varying the concentration of external Na+ from 0 to 100 mM. The release of [3H]norepinephrine induced by both concentrations of palytoxin increased with increasing Ca2+ concentrations from 0 to 3 mM. Palytoxin caused a concentration- dependent increase in 22Na and 45Ca influxes into pheochromocytoma cells at concentrations of 0.1 nM-10 nM and 1 nM-1 microM, respectively. The palytoxin-induced 45Ca influx was markedly inhibited by Co2+, whereas the palytoxin-induced 22Na influx was not affected by tetrodotoxin. These results suggest that in pheochromocytoma cells the [3H]norepinephrine release induced by lower concentrations of palytoxin is primarily brought about by increasing tetrodotoxin-insensitive Na+ permeability across the cell membrane, whereas that induced by higher concentrations is mainly caused by a direct increase in Ca2+ influx into them.

ABSTRACT:
Sea anemone Radianthus macrodactylus--a new source of palytoxin.

Mahnir VM, Kozlovskaya EP, Kalinovsky AI.

Pacific Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry, Russian Academy of Sciences, Vladivostok.

A very potent non-protein toxin was isolated from the sea anemone Radianthus macrodactylus with the use of chromatography on polytetrafluoroethylene, CM-Sephadex C-25 and by cation and anion exchange HPLC. The toxin was identified as palytoxin by u.v.-, i.r.- and 500 MHz 1H NMR spectroscopy. Its LD50 was 0.74 +/- 0.29 micrograms/kg by i.v. injection into mice. So far, palytoxin has been associated with zoanthids only. The toxin caused the loss of haemoglobin from erythrocytes but only in about 2 hr after the beginning of incubation, which is characteristic for palytoxin from zoanthids. Sea anemone palytoxin was divided into major and minor components by HPLC. The latter proved to be a product of degradation of palytoxin.


Lots more
http://content.febsjournal.org/cgi/c...ll/269/16/3905

[tippMANn98]

So from reading this....This is telling me that EVERYBODY IS BLOWING IT OUT OF PROPORTION! sure its deadly, at extremely high high doses.

[GSELLERS]

not necessarily....its the reaction to the toxin that kill people not the toxin itself.

[BigAl07]

That's correct. Keep in mind that there are some strains of Palytoxins that are deadly in very small doses as well. Fortunately we don't "normally" encounter these in our trade.

Either way it's not worth the risk. If you just "happen" to be allergic to one and have a reaction you may or may NOT get a 2nd chance to do things differently.

[tippMANn98]

It still sounds like a super super super RARE chance...there has never been a documented case...I know, better safe than sorry...I live like that anyway......

[GSELLERS]

FWIW treat every paly as if it will kill you.....You cant get a second chance. My buddies dog didnt get a chance. He drank the saltwater that a paly was fragged in and he died within 12 hours....

[BigAl07]

It's the "Palytoxins" that natives in Hawaii used to poison their darts for hunting game with. I'll drop Craig a PM and see if he has any information on that but I'm about 90% I read this recently... it's some type of Zoa that lives in very shallow water/tide pools.

Now I'm intrigued as I'd like to give SOLID facts instead of "I read it somewhere".

[GSELLERS]

you are correct....poison tip darts are made from paly toxin

[lcstorc]

No matter how rare it is, it is easily avoided or contact can easily be minimized. Any danger that is so easy to avoid should be. You won't know if you are allergic until it is too late.