Treating Marine Ich

[tippMANn98]

Originally Posted by Varga

I've read that before.....I also read it will not go away, every system has ich but your tank should be healthy enough that your fish are strong enough to become immune to it.

everytime i get a new fish, its like clockworks, it gets ich within 48 hours and it goes away within 2-3 days, never spreads to current residents. this tells me my tank has ich but the fish are fighting it.

Yea, same here, I think its all just blown waay out of porportion. FW ich life cycle is accelerated when exposed to elevated temps, anything above 86 degrees F will speed up its cycle to just under 2 weeks, Works like a charm in FW, not applicable to SW....Cleaner Shrimp work wonders, I think its all with the fish and its individual health to be honest, I know there are all these"reports" by certain people, who are they? I know what I know from experience, and I NEVER lose fish to ich.

[lcstorc]

Not losing fish to ich is different than not having ich in your tank. Fish can build up an immunity and a healthy fish is often able to fight off the infection. The real risk is when a fish becomes stressed or poor nutrition etc. That is when you have a breakout and start losing fish.
It can be eliminated from the system but few people have the dedication to do it right.

[SubRosa]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

All myths.
Copper and hyposalinity are the only options that work completely. You also have to leave the tank fishless for at least 8 weeks which is the life cycle of the parasite.
UV only removes the parasite in it's free swimming stage.
Water changes are the same thing. It will remove the parasites in the water removed but ich will remain in the tank.

I beg to differ!Formalin and Clout will both most assuredly cure MI.Both have drawbacks as do all of the other treatments.The trick is to keep any pathogens out of the main systems by a rigorous regimen of quarantine and imo prophylactic treatment for both internal and external parasites as well as a broad spectrum antibiotic.None of the effective treatments are safe on a full blown reef.By maintaining excellent water quality, providing good nutrition and a suitable habitat you can definitely maintain a tank long term with ich present and asymptomatic,but with just a bit more work you can have one that's MI free.

John

[SATELLITE]

when my fish get ich. i just have to leave them in the tank. i do a lil bit more water changes and use a lot of selcon and garlic guard on all my foods when i feed. it always seem to take it away after 3-5 days

[fatman]

The trick is to prevent importation of Ich into a clean system. Hyposalinity is the least stressful and most widely used and recommended treatment, followed by copper. Both salinity and copper can be monitored by most reef keepers. Formalin is more stressful then either hyposalinity or copper and requires many repeated dosages, and few people have ability to test for levels of formalin or Clout or even Malachite green which is occasioanlly used or is often used in conjunction with Formalin. I personally do not like to use medications or supplements that can not be readily tested for concentrations.

[fatman]

Originally Posted by SATELLITE

when my fish get ich. i just have to leave them in the tank. i do a lil bit more water changes and use a lot of selcon and garlic guard on all my foods when i feed. it always seem to take it away after 3-5 days

lcstorc is right in that the Ich has not just gone away, nor is she wrong in saying that not losing fish to Ick does not constitute having a tank free of Ich. No experts dispute that opinion.

Neither Garlic or Selcon (amino acids) will not cure a fish or a fish tank of Ich, nor do cleaner gobis or cleaner shrimp pick off the Ick. They will lessen the intensity of Ick infestations, but will not fully stop them.

There are many reports in print that are written by researchers and the information has not changed over he years, nor have new treatment methods been discovered. Lee's posting on Ich mentions at least one of those researchers several times.

Immunity can be built up to an Ich breakout on individual fish, but that immunity can also be lost by an individual fish. The levels of break out in healthy "immune" fish are just so light that they are usually just not noticed or are considered something other than Ich. Eye bumps are quite often Ich and seldom does anyone holler Ich and quarantine all their fish.

Most people just put up with low level, nearly unnocticeable break outs of Ick that they assume just went away or think are somthing else. Then when a new fish comes in the reef keeper old fish that are not immune to the new Ich therefore a break out that is undisputable starts and they again think they had no Ich before but think they now have it again.

The only information put out by Lee or lcstorc that I have a problem with is the statement that the salt water Ich cycle is not effected by temperature, because that is still disputed between different studies by different researchers.

[SATELLITE]

that is some good info. i'm just saying this is what i use and i don't know if it gets rid of it totally, but it makes it go away. my blue hippo had it and this is what i did and 3-5 days later there was no more dots. with or with out dots on him it didn't slow him down any.. again everyone has there methods of doing the right thing to get rid of something..

[tippMANn98]

Ok, I have a good question...How does the fish lose immunity? Like with us humans we get the chicken pox once--then never again, we bilt an immunity that does not go away, as with lots of things over time-each all varying per individual. So HOW or why? Is it because of their metabolism?

[fatman]

The researchers speculate that the fish develop a mucus coat that protects them and possibly have other mechanisms that give them something of an immunity, but that stress and poor condition can cause a loss of that immunity or ability to fight off heavy infestations of Ich. They also speculate that there is never a full immunity.

It has been discussed and by some, claimed, that an introduction of a new Ich is not repelled as well as the old "strain" of Ich, but that if the new strain is not introduced it is said that the old "strain" breeds itself out and actually dies out completely in approximately one year.

I have not seen any thing written about "what ifs" such as, what if a new fish is introduced with out Ich, does that extend the year out further. I speculate no. I think that it probably has to do with an equivalent of inbreeding. They need new parasite blood line, not new host blood/tissue/fluids. IMO

[tippMANn98]

So right now the immunity issue is all speculations? nothing hard. I understand the different strain hypothesis, Because everything is constantly "changing and evolving" that makes more sense to me.

[fatman]

Science is kinda strange. Often scientist/researchers are unable to set up tests that prove something happens but that that instead proves something does not happen, so the assume the other is actually how it happens until there is better proof or testing showing otherwise. Often that is the closest answers they can provide.

Basically it is easy to prove that fish in bad health that are not eatting good foods and are experiencing other major stressors are more susceptoble to heavy infestations of Ich, but it is hard to prove the opposite. But the fact that long established residents fed good food, such as food enriched with Selcon and Garlic seem less susceptible to heavy infestations is hard to prove. It is specualted though that the good living with healthy foods provide a good mucous coating that could provide some immunity and that is also not really provable, asis the lower stresses effects not provable. Perhaps not yet proven is more appropriate thn not provable.

Science is mainly a science of finding a way to document something that already exists, it is really not so much a science of discovery. Mankind is better at copying or finding different ways to make or recreate something that all ready exists, we are not that good at seeing things that we do not understand, and it is hard to understand what we can not see.

So much of science is educated speculation or educated guesses. That is all theory really is, the educated assumption that the most logical answer is the right answer until a better answer/assumption comes along. It is not perfect, but the best we have. It did get us to the moon and down to the lowest depths of the ocean ans so much more.

Theory is all that most chemistry is, we assume that something happens that we can not see because we can only understand things in the ways we can put on paper. We look at the electrical aspect of elements and grow out from there. We can see not see elements form into compounds at an electrical level, nor see them change into different compounds we speculate.

Is it considered faith/trust that when you turn the light switch on that you expect the light to come on. Few people understand the princiles behind the genertion of electricity or the transmission of electricity for hundreds of miles. Some times we except the explanatoions of others, ans some times we take something in faith/trust and do not even ask.

[tippMANn98]

I love science, and the scientific process that I know has a final step of "testing your hypothesis" or educated guess.... What ever happened to testing your guess?

[Varga]

ich is like ants. you can spend loads of money and kill 100% of the ants in and around your house, which is crazy, some people do this!!

OR you can just keep a clean house and have a healthy number of insects and worry about something else .

[plecosword]

Originally Posted by Varga

ich is like ants. you can spend loads of money and kill 100% of the ants in and around your house, which is crazy, some people do this!!

OR you can just keep a clean house and have a healthy number of insects and worry about something else .

I dont view ick as a healthy Insects, they spread pretty fast. I view ick ass leaches!

[fatman]

Originally Posted by tippMANn98

I love science, and the scientific process that I know has a final step of "testing your hypothesis" or educated guess.... What ever happened to testing your guess?

The object of testing a hypothesis is most often to test if your hypothesis can be proven wrong, as often there is no way to prove it right, so you eliminate the doubts. A test or trial is a success anytime it can be repeated and that when repeated the test provides the same results.

Often times though it produces the same results repeatedly, but the results are not as you had expected, but that still means that the tests or trials were successful even when they prove your hypothesis wrong.

How ever proving a hypothesis wrong is not necessarily proving something right, but it is instead just proving something wrong. There are many great works of science that came from tests/trials where the original hypothesis was wrong. Just as there have been many great discoveries in chemistry that were found by accident. Such as silicone, and many pharmaceutical drugs.