Malvo Quilty!!

[NaH2O]

Originally posted by Montanareefer
Makes me want to go back to my childhood when I walked bare footed down a dirt country road in Vermont and all was well with the world!

How people and time has changed all in how we exist in this world now!

My mom taught kindergarten at a school in Chicago. Aside from the normal fire drills and Tornado drills, they had (what I call) "shootings" drills. Also, down the street from the school was a funeral home where you could drive up and ask for the person you wanted to see, and they would bring the coffin to a viewing window. It's pretty sad that violence has brought our society to this.

[Maxx]

Originally posted by ScottT1980



The "an eye for an eye" ideology always perturbs me a bit. It is an ideology based on hatred masked by justice. .

It is something I struggle with quite a bit but I just feel that killing a man, any man, is and always will be murder, no matter who that man is or what he has done.

Scott,
I respect your opinion, life is definately something that should be valued. But I feel that if someone has committed a crime so heinous that they have to be locked away from the rest of society for the remainder of their lives that another solution should be considered besides a tax payer funded incarceration. I believe that the death penalty should be enforced more than it has in the past. The recidivism rate post execution is zero. It may not make an example of violent criminals or act as a deterrant to other would be offenders, but it would remove the ones who were caught, given a fair trial, and sentenced by a jury. That would also lower the cost of running prisons through out the nation. If Max security prisons were a short term holding area prior to execution, (eventually) they would be less crowded, would require less room, and less personnel to operate, etc, and be less expensive to run. I'm not suggesting this for medium or minimum security prisons, just those that currently incarcerate felons for life. This would of course also require a re-vamp of the judical system's appeal process. I'm all for throwing out appeals that do nothing but delay the execution. I'm not talking about bonafide appeals that have a chance of introducing evidence that could affect a prisoners sentencing, just delaying appeals that do nothing but waste time and money of the tax payers. What about those falsely accused you say.....well, we have the ability to test for DNA, and have had since the mid nineties or just before. We definately have it for this particular trial...use it. For those prisoners tried and convicted before DNA was testing was available, another solution would have to be implemented, as I dont feel that its an acceptable answer to say thats the price of safety...
If the death penalty is still thought of as too barbaric, I'm all for moving towards a Turkish mindset towards impisonment. If convicted to say...one year in Turkey. You will serve one year, no exceptions. You will also need to find someone to feed you, clothe you, and pay for any medical attention needed. If you're still alive at the end of your sentence, then you are free to go.
I would have no problem w/ a prison system based on this line of thinking. The cost of running a system like this is much less than the way we do business now. Don't get me wrong, I'm not after the almighty dollar. But I fail to see why anybody who has shown such blatant disregard for another's life, that they commit a crime and are removed from society for the rest of their lives, should get anything more than a room to sit in for the next 30 years. Why should I waste my hard earned money housing these people, giving them medical attention beyond whats reasonably necessary, (ie...Estrogen pills to males who are transgendered, or my favorite, the heart transplant for the murderer on death row in CA. who was going to die w/o it. They actually had to stay the execution in order to perform the surgery. There were many people on the list for heart transplants that he was bumped in front of. And when it was all said and done, the heart was wasted since it couldnt be harvested after the execution.) when they 'v already demonstrated that they're quite willing to take my life, rape my children, etc.... Sorry I dont have much sympathy. I know there are many ways to debate this, I'm under the gun so to speak, cause I've only got a few minutes left before I run off to work. But these are my thoughts, if anyones interested, I'd be more than happy to debate all of this later.
Nick

[ScottT1980]

Maxx, I appreciate the response...

I will say that I am a bit tired and so instead of responding to each and every point, I will just agree to disagree on this one. There is no sense in my diving into an issue that could offend some and jeopardize my relationships with many here (which probably would not happen but could, and I don't want to risk that).

I will just say that I believe very strongly in justice and consequences, but that are brought along by non-violent means. Call me a "tree-hugger," call me an idealist, call me a fool, I can live with those but there are some things that my concious would never let me live with...

Ah well, I tried not to trip over any soapboxes so I hope I at least succeeded in doing that

Take er easy
Scott T.

[reefrunner]

I will just say that I believe very strongly in justice and consequences, but that are brought along by non-violent means. Call me a "tree-hugger," call me an idealist, call me a fool, I can live with those but there are some things that my concious would never let me live with...

This is a commendable attitude, it however, is not the predominant attitude in our society. When you have responded to crime scenes and seen first hand what depravity the human species is capable of...your attitude towards the monsters of the world might change. When you have tried to save victims only to watch them die, you may feel differently. There are some souls (or people that lack them) that are not worth saving. What it comes down to for me, is does the criminals life have any redeeming value? The answer in most cases is yes, in this particular instance....I don't know, I'm glad I'm not the judge.

It costs an average of 49.00 per day to house an inmate in the state of Florida. There are some people with sentences that do not warrant spending the money.

It is something I struggle with quite a bit but I just feel that killing a man, any man, is and always will be murder, no matter who that man is or what he has done.

I personally would appreciate if you would retract or clarify this comment. I have, during my career, come very close to killing 3 people (3 seperate incidents), each time I would have been totally justified, but opportunities for other solutions provided themselves before the trigger was pulled. Had those opportunities not arisen, I would not have been a murderer. Every human has a basic right to protect themselves and there loved ones (and any other human for that matter) with deadly force, if the situation calls for it. If I walk in on a man raping your mother and I shoot him, he dies...am I a murderer? I realize this was (probably) simply a short sighted comment on your part, but it hits close to home.

[ScottT1980]

This is a commendable attitude, it however, is not the predominant attitude in our society. When you have responded to crime scenes and seen first hand what depravity the human species is capable of...your attitude towards the monsters of the world might change. When you have tried to save victims only to watch them die, you may feel differently. There are some souls (or people that lack them) that are not worth saving. What it comes down to for me, is does the criminals life have any redeeming value? The answer in most cases is yes, in this particular instance....I don't know, I'm glad I'm not the judge.

My father and mother both worked for the Georgia Buerau of Investigation. Both of them did crime scenes for a good portion of their time with the GBI. My father was also on of the primary forensic examiners in the state, doing dozens and dozens of autopsies a week. I went to my first autopsy when I was 8 or 9 (much to my mother's dismay) and have seen more death than most. I have seen some pretty dramatic scenes, most caused by violence. So, I have seen the evil that rests in the souls of many humans but that still does not change my opinion of the death penalty or of murder in general.

I personally would appreciate if you would retract or clarify this comment. I have, during my career, come very close to killing 3 people (3 seperate incidents), each time I would have been totally justified, but opportunities for other solutions provided themselves before the trigger was pulled. Had those opportunities not arisen, I would not have been a murderer. Every human has a basic right to protect themselves and there loved ones (and any other human for that matter) with deadly force, if the situation calls for it. If I walk in on a man raping your mother and I shoot him, he dies...am I a murderer? I realize this was (probably) simply a short sighted comment on your part, but it hits close to home.

The statement is exactly as stated. As a theology professor once told me, "there is a killer in all of us" and I certainly do see his point. This was by no means a "short sighted" comment as it is very well thought out considering every possible circumstance. I don't take this issue lightly at all. Two wrongs don't make a right. Murder is murder, whether it is justifiable or not. I am learning more and more that there are ways to handle almost any situation in a non-violent fashion but when the history of humanity is virtually shaped by violence, it is hard to get out of that entreanched ideology.

Edit: Upon looking up the webster definition of murder, it is "unlawfully killing a person" but I find this definition's interpretation to be a hazy only because the Law is not a static thing and is dependent upon the social/theological/ideological construct of any given person. So, while as far as the U.S. law is concerned, it perhaps is lawful but in another context (such as most religious beliefs) it perhaps is not. I think killing someone is wrong, or have you, is murder. At the same time, I am not trying to take the moral highground because as I said, their is a killer in all of us. I do plenty of things wrong in this world, many things that others would probably addamantly disagree with. So reefrunner, I am not trying to make a judgement of your character, just saying that I think killing is wrong. Does that make sense?

If a man were raping my mother or girlfriend and I shot that person (and killed him), that does not make it right and that is something that I would ever live down.

Again, this is the reason I did not want to delve any furthur into the topic because I knew I could offend many individuals on this site and I mean no offense. I have my opinions and my life experiences and you have yours. I hope I haven't struck a nerve with my beliefs...

Take er easy
Scott T.

[Curtswearing]

Hey everyone. I have beliefs on this issue. In fact, I have strong beliefs on this issue. You know me to some degree. As a result, you think you know my beliefs on this issue but there is a 50% chance you are wrong.

Some of you will be right about my opinions on this issue----some of you will be wrong. I have absolutely no problems with you guys discussing such weighty issues but I have to look to the future. Will someone who has been around for 3 days be as respectful? What type of response will they have?

I was up until 3:00 in the morning with a client last night. On top of that, my brothers wife was under the knife today to check for ovarian cancer. Obviously less important in the grand scheme of things, Spike (who was named Spike due to the spray paint incident of 2002) was stuck to a powerhead when I got home tonight and might not make it.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would let this issue stay just as it is for now until the dynamite duo has a chance to respond to my thoughts on this thread.

[mojoreef]

Ahh, we all have opinions, on something like this there are going to be differences for sure. Kevin I tend to share your views on this more then I do Scotts, and I have no problem with Scotts views. Everyone in the world has their opinion about most things and look at things in a different light, I am sure there are folks in the world that may think shooting someone is exciting and personally I am not really worried about their views either. We have some great members here Curt and I know nothing will come of this.

take care all

Mike

I'm with Scott.

I find it a little offensive, in the karmic scheme of things, that people would attach a monetary value (i.e.: your tax dollars) to a life - whoever that life may belong to.

I do like the Turkish idea of having prisoners find their own support but it is still barbaric to let an inmate die because he has lost all support.

Maybe we can use inmates for medical research. It sure would save a lot of innocent animal lives. (Sorry, I just wouldn't be me without slipping that in).

[Curtswearing]

Mojo,

I know we have great members here. I feel close to all of you and I feel that if we were all in a big room together, we could discuss politics, religion, science, and just about any other issue. I suspect that we would have a grand time together.

However, let's let sleeping dog's lie until tommorrow please.

[Witfull]

we are all entitled to our opinions and we have the right to say them, as long as we do not attack anothers opinion there is no reason that it cannot be discussed.
speaking a Correctional Officer that has worked on both State and Federal levels. i have seen mans inhumanity to man. i have seen men killed and men die. i have worked death row and walked the "last Mile" with them. do i feel that the paid too high a price? personally, no. i do not attach a dollar value on life, but there are some that deserve the death sentence.
way back in time we banished some folks and others were killed. prison is banishment. there are many that cannot be rehabilitated and continue their evil ways,they killed in life, they kill in prison, if they got out they will kill. this is regrettably true. we put down animals that show they will attack and harm. some of these guys are animals with little or no redeeming qualities.
as for me killing another, i have not to this date, but i have pulled my weapon, and they surrendered, but had they not, i would have shot them center mass, most likely resulting in their death, would this bother me, i dont think so, for i know i was protecting the public, maybe your family?
i respect every ones opinions and do not think less of any one for having it. that is what makes our world, and our justice system what it is today.

[Craig Manoukian]

Well, I thank all of you for your objective views and no personal flaming. We all have common interests in this hobby and this forum allows us to get to know one another as well as share ideas. We can agree to disagree as that is one of the rights millions of Americans have died for.

This thread could not have taken place in Iraq, under the tyranny of Saddam Isane with out each and everyone of us being subject to brutal punishment if not death. We all have had a one in seventeen chance of being born in this great country. This extends to our Canadian brothers and sister as well as those in commonwealths.

My parting comments will be that until you are married you have no idea how much responsibility you have to protect your spouse and children. I pity the person who would not be wiiling to use deadly force, as a last resort, for the guilt they would have to live with.

Again thanks to all for sharing their views!

[NaH2O]

Originally posted by Craig Manoukian

My parting comments will be that until you are married you have no idea how much responsibility you have to protect your spouse and children. I pity the person who would not be wiiling to use deadly force, as a last resort, for the guilt they would have to live with.

Craig, I agree, however, I do know that even before I was married and had a child, I would have protected friends and family, even strangers that were being victimized. I just think it has to do with human decency and caring for humanity.

Originally posted by Craig Manoukian
This thread could not have taken place in Iraq, under the tyranny of Saddam Isane with out each and everyone of us being subject to brutal punishment if not death.

I beg you to please not bring Saddam into this discussion.

... I removed the rest of my post because I do not want to fork onto a new issue ...

[Maxx]

I will say that I am a bit tired and so instead of responding to each and every point, I will just agree to disagree on this one. There is no sense in my diving into an issue that could offend some and jeopardize my relationships with many here (which probably would not happen but could, and I don't want to risk that).

Scott,
I can live w/ this, and I certainly respect you desires to keep this from getting messy. I think its probably the wisest course in this situation. Just in reading your responses in many different threads I've come to "see" you as an intelligent person w/ good insight. We all have different backgrounds which had at least some bearing on our personal beliefs. If I want my views to be respected, I have to be willing to respect yours. You are definately someone I would enjoy "solving" the worlds problems w/ over a few drinks. Let me know if you're ever in St louis...I've got the first round.

I find it a little offensive, in the karmic scheme of things, that people would attach a monetary value (i.e.: your tax dollars) to a life - whoever that life may belong to.

Hmmmm....obviously my point was a little vague...lemme clarify...
I have problems w/ the fact that a convicted murderer/child molester/rapist who has already inflicted harm on society by committing the crimes that got him/her sentanced to life in prison in the first place, is now inflicting further harm on society by using tax dollars that could be spent on education, medical research, shelters for the homeless, drug rehabilitation, environmental protection, alternative fuel research, subsidized medical care for all, lowering the costs of prescription drugs...etc....I'm not attaching a dollar amount to anyone's life. I find that concept offensive as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not after the almighty dollar.

Sorry, thought this was fairly easily understood.......

Maybe we can use inmates for medical research. It sure would save a lot of innocent animal lives.

I'm not real sure where this comes into play, or how this contributes to the disscussion at all. What say we leave that alone?
Nick

[ScottT1980]

I can live w/ this, and I certainly respect you desires to keep this from getting messy. I think its probably the wisest course in this situation. Just in reading your responses in many different threads I've come to "see" you as an intelligent person w/ good insight. We all have different backgrounds which had at least some bearing on our personal beliefs. If I want my views to be respected, I have to be willing to respect yours. You are definately someone I would enjoy "solving" the worlds problems w/ over a few drinks. Let me know if you're ever in St louis...I've got the first round.

I will take you up on that and while we might not solve all the world's problems, perhaps we could solve my turf algae problem...

Take er easy
Scott T.