Grain Alcohol?

[Craig Manoukian]

Can't read the legend. What do each of the colored lines represent and what are the X and Y axes? Thanks!

[fishcrazy]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

DO NOT even consider using NPR unless you have a great skimmer.

You better believe it!!!

BTW...I love your tank. I'm also curious if at one time you were the same person doing a draw through a plenum in your tank some time back. If so, I applaud you and I'm sorry that people can sometimes be not be so nice. Also, Kudos for showing how to do the Zeovit system "on the cheap"

There are great risks if you overdose or quit dosing quickly. I feel that it is important that people understand these issues with this method and that they take GREAT care if they decide to pursue dosing Carbon (whether it is ethanol or acetic acid or any other additional Carbon source). Through careful observation, testing, and experimentation, Ldrhawke has found something that works for him/her. However, please understand that this method requires running the razor's edge with the Redfield Ratio so if you want to pursue this, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH.

I would not do this to my tank....especially if I had a sandbed. However, if you do your research, this is possible. It's also possible to achieve the same results with aggressive skimming, great flow, good chemical filtration, yada, yada, yada.

Here's why...adding a Carbon source to fuel a bacterial bloom has associated risks and good husbandry does not. Especially if you have a sandbed. You cannot pick and choose which bacteria use that Carbon source....they will ALL use it. Sure the AOBs and NOBs will use it but so will the Sulphate Reducing Bacteria (SRB) and Sulphate Oxidizing Bacteria (SOB). Who wants to promote a Sulphide zone in their sandbed??? Most people who follow the "drop sand in and never touch it again because matter can magically disappear" have a sulphide zone and don't even know it. They think that because they cannot see a grey line indicating a sulphide zone, they don't have one. However, once enough Iron gets introduced via waterchanges, feedings, etc., the grey line will magically appear.

If you were at your wits end and wanted to try this, why use Vodka? You would be much better off with moonshine or Everclear http://www.webtender.com/db/ingred/71 . (Note the warning for humans.....I think they should update their webpage to include corals too LOL). It is a lot more pure than Vodka and the Carbon is right on the front (CH3CH2OH).

Assuming you don't accidentally overdose, the affects on N and P are temporary. Bacteria are primarily food limited (but also somewhat housing space limited). There are bacteria that are motile and run around the water column that you can skim out as well as bacteria growin on his floss, but for the most part, they live in biofilms on a surface. After the bacterial bloom, how many of the bacteria are we really skimming out vs creating thicker biofilms? What do you think is going to happen once you stop adding a Carbon source? The nutrient-limited bacteria will die and release N and P into the water column but it will be all in one day (most bacteria don't live more than 24 hours). Yikes...would you collect skimmate for a couple of months and then dump it into your tank all at once?

There are additional risks. If you stray too far from the Redfield Ratio and you become N or P limited, you are going to have a REAL MESS on your hands. If you don't know what the Redfield Ratio is, have a ball. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...oe=UTF-8&hl=en Ldrhawke has found ways of addressing these issues in his/her tank but make sure you have enough knowledge before willy nilly start dumping Carbon in your tank.

I'm sure that LDRHawke will tell you that he or she did a lot of research and a lot of experimentation. In his/her posts, there are some of the risks laid out and his/her method of combatting them. Be cautious if you decide to pursue this.

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fishcrazy

You better believe it!!!

BTW...I love your tank. I'm also curious if at one time you were the same person doing a draw through a plenum in your tank some time back. If so, I applaud you and I'm sorry that people can sometimes be not be so nice. Also, Kudos for showing how to do the Zeovit system "on the cheap"

There are great risks if you overdose or quit dosing quickly. ..........

..........................
Assuming you don't accidentally overdose, the affects on N and P are temporary. Bacteria are primarily food limited (but also somewhat housing space limited). There are bacteria that are motile and run around the water column that you can skim out as well as bacteria growin on his floss, but for the most part, they live in biofilms on a surface. After the bacterial bloom, how many of the bacteria are we really skimming out vs creating thicker biofilms? What do you think is going to happen once you stop adding a Carbon source? The nutrient-limited bacteria will die and release N and P into the water column but it will be all in one day (most bacteria don't live more than 24 hours). Yikes...would you collect skimmate for a couple of months and then dump it into your tank all at once?

.............. Ldrhawke has found ways of addressing these issues in his/her tank but make sure you have enough knowledge before willy nilly start dumping Carbon in your tank.

[/b]

Yes I am the same guy that started CPW ( controlled plenum wasting), which does work. I stopped using CPW when I realized that by improving on methods to physically export waste and nutrient laden bacteria just made more sense, plus it was easier to control. It is more efficient, and less apt to get unbalanced than trying to biologically treat waste inside the system. But, thanks for the nice comments.

Most all of your comments about adding any external carbon source are correct and should be heeded. It is easy to over dose and is the primary reason failures have occurred. It is why I mentioned it is important to have a high degree of control and patience, like the methods used in apply the ZEO process.

Your comments on it's potential negative effects on other types of bacteria within a DSB are also well taken. The potential for bacterial upset in a DSB can also be caused many other things, which will bring on the same problems you described alcohol causing, which is a large part of my reasoning for becoming a BB advocate.

My recommended Vodka dosing is much lower than most have prescribed in using alcohol in the past and much closer to how the ZEO process is applied. Your comments on producing bacteria and then simply allowing the bacteria to die is exactly why I say to remove the bacteria laden floss after 8 hours and don't simply shake it to break it loose and allow the skimmer to do.

Most everyone acknowledges that phosphates, in some form, does slowy saturate DSB and even live rock (reason for cooking live rock) in all reef tanks. Using only conventional process only, and not also keeping up with phosphate removal, is also walking a tightrope. The potential for phosphate being slowly or even suddenly released; caused a temperture,pH, or DSB becoming unbalanced, is also a very real danger. In my mind the question is, not will it happen,but when will it happen. To address it you can go bare bottom and every couple of years cook all your live rock, but I'm hoping to find a better answer.

I disagree that EverClear alcohol is any more pure than Vodka, it is just a higher proof. It is cheaper where I live to buy Vodka than EverClear, even taking into account it's higher proof.

I believe adding a clean carbon source properly administered will help keep phosphates under control. I'm hoping the increased bacteria film that develops on the live rock helps to slowly extract phosphate or at least keeps them from becoming an unwanted source of increase nutrient release. The success of the ZEO process by many advocates demonstrates carbon addition and increased bacteria extraction has merit in maintaining a low nutrient tank.

Maybe NPR can take it another step.....maybe not. At this point it works for me. As you so well stated, using alcohol with a DSB may cause other issues I have not taken into account. I believe using NPR to extract phosphate has more potential reward than risk if done cautiously. Unlike the ZEO process, I have no commercial interests in the Vodka or filter floss business. I'm only trying to stimulate thought and advance the hobby.

[fishcrazy]

Your comments on producing bacteria and then simply allowing the bacteria to die and is exactly why I say remove the bacteria laden floss after 8 hours and don't simply shake it to break it loose and allow the skimmer to do.

In that sense, I feel your method is FAR superior to Zeovit.

I disagree that EverClear alcohol is any more pure than Vodka, it is just a higher proof. It is cheaper where I live to buy Vodka than EverClear, even taking into account it's higher proof.

After thinking about it, I think I just had a temporary brain burp.

Unlike the ZEO process, I have no commercial interests in the Vodka or filter floss business. I'm only trying to stimulate thought and advance the hobby.

Unfortunately, that can be dangerous on some forums.

Keep up the good work. I'm very interested to see the results over time.

Great info

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fishcrazy

There are additional risks. If you stray too far from the Redfield Ratio and you become N or P limited, you are going to have a REAL MESS on your hands. If you don't know what the Redfield Ratio is, have a ball. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...oe=UTF-8&hl=en [/b]

Additional response......With all of the tank water passing through the floss at a high rate, coupled with low rate dosing of Vodka directly, I beleive that risk is minimal. The filter floss continuely collects excess food and detrius, which contains unprocessed nitrates and phosphate, the risk of becoming phosphate or nitrate limted is greatly reduced. You are right though.....if you dose excess Vodka that could be come an issue.

[fishcrazy]

Sounds like a great concept to prevent limitation.

Ever thought of marketing HawkeVit???

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fishcrazy

Sounds like a great concept to prevent limitation.

Ever thought of marketing HawkeVit???

HawkeVit, sounds like a great idea......I could buy a gallon of cheap Vodka cut it with Vinegar, add a few drops of other amino acids, and put it into 64- 2 oz bottles that sell for $19.95 each. I'll make $1000.00 plus per gallon.

Any ideas on what I can do to disguise and repackage the filter floss?

[fishcrazy]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

Any ideas on what I can do to disguise and repackage the filter floss?

LOL!!!

Well let's see. Zeovit experimented with a bunch of zeolites which is the same thing that kitty litter is made of. They seem to make a big deal out of the fact that zeolites occur in nature. Theirs is man-made but many of them are not.

Maybe you could describe it as a Fibrous Redfield Ratio Regulator. It is man-made as well but it is entirely composed of natural elements. http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/polyester.htm

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fishcrazy

LOL!!!

Well let's see. Zeovit experimented with a bunch of zeolites which is the same thing that kitty litter is made of. They seem to make a big deal out of the fact that zeolites occur in nature. There's is man-made but many of them are not.

Maybe you could describe it as a Fibrous Redfield Ratio Regulator. It is man-made as well but it is entirely composed of natural elements. http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/polyester.htm

I think we've got something going here, this is our secret.......:


Fibrous Redfield Ratio Regulator is made by reacting ethylene glycol with either terephthalic acid or its methyl ester in the presence of an antimony catalyst. The reaction is carried out at high temperature and vacuum to achieve the high molecular weights need to form useful fibers. It is long-chain man made polymer composed of at least 85% by weight of an ester of a substituted aromatic carboxylic acid, including but not restricted to substituted terephthalic units, p(-R-O-CO- C6H4-CO-O-)x and parasubstituted hydroxy-benzoate units, p(-R-O-CO-C6H4-O-)x.

Strong
Resistant to stretching and shrinking
Resistant to most chemicals
Quick drying
Crisp and resilient when wet or dry
Wrinkle resistant
Mildew resistant
Abrasion resistant
Retains heat-set pleats and crease
Easily washed

[fishcrazy]

Wow!!!

It sounds sufficiently scientific so that's a plus. There's also a list of a lot of advantages that it provides and that has to help. Congratulations...you could easily market this product to reefers.

If you really wanted to have a good advertising plug, you can legally say that your product complies with FTC regulations.

[mps9506]

Glad to see you are removing the bacteria via the floss.
I was intially worried with this post that people were going to try to pour vodka in their tanks to reduce nutrients.
Personally all these methods are too much work for me.
But glad to see Zeo can be done for much cheaper.

[My2heartboys]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

HawkeVit, sounds like a great idea......I could buy a gallon of cheap Vodka cut it with Vinegar, add a few drops of other amino acids, and put it into 64- 2 oz bottles that sell for $19.95 each. I'll make $1000.00 plus per gallon.

Any ideas on what I can do to disguise and repackage the filter floss?

__________________________________________________ ____________

And I thought my idea for a link confirmation business was nuts.

On second thought--that idea just may work.


Anne

[ldrhawke]

Added Info...... to revive the topic

Now that you are using the NPR ( Nitrogen Phosphate Ranching process) and Hawke's super floss for nutrient export, and have gotten your tank nutrients low, you may need some added nutrients to help pop the colors out of the SPS.

This is a result of my special blend of trace nutrients that bring out the SPS color...see attached....

It is my special blend of emulsified Cod Liver oil and clam juice. (amino acids and iron) A few drops a day will brighten up your tank.

[Craig Manoukian]

Man I think I need a biochem degree! Great information presented. Thanks to all for dumbing the science down for guys, or gals, like me!

[dwall174]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

At the top of my recirculation tank I built a 3" deep rectangular tray with two large holes on the bottom. Two coarse nylon bag filter set in these holes. Into the bags I add a handful of filter floss. All of my tank overflow is directed through the bag filters. As the bag filter begin to clog with waste, the water rises a couple of inches and over flows the tray into the recirculation tank.

Do you have any pic’s of the bag filter set-up? I’m not looking to copy your NPR system, But I am planing on adding a couple of filter socks on a new system that will have a 100gal Rubbermaid sump. My main concern is creating nitrates by using the filter socks, By using the floss & tossing it sounds like a good way to get rid of them!

BTW
Here's a denitrator made by Aquaripure that uses Vodka to help build bacteria to reduce nitrates! I haven’t really heard anything good or bad about them, But it sounds fairly simple! Just a little on the expensive side.
I usually do a 20% WC about every 10 days (the time my top-off system needs to be refilled) which seems to be more than enough to control my nitrates! Now if the Aquaripure really helped to reduce your WC needs then I would think it would pay for it self in the savings of salt!