Grain Alcohol?

[cheeks69]

A DSB does not have to be the nutrient sink that everyone alludes to. I recently took down my 80 gallon display tank, a donation to the Wooster HS Science department, after 3 years of it being in operation.

If a SB is well maintained then it can last a few years but eventually PO4 will be a problem there's no escaping, it's a DSB's destiny.

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

If a SB is well maintained then it can last a few years but eventually PO4 will be a problem there's no escaping, it's a DSB's destiny.

I have to agree. 3 years is a very short time for a tank to be setup imo if you are judging the long term stability of a tank and the ability of a filter to cope with handaling nutrient input.
I am by no means saying DSB isn't a viable option as a nitrate consumer, however, what goes in must come out at some point in time. If the inhabitants of the tank are setup to deal with the nutrients that load up the bed, then there is no problem. But anyways, been there done that, this has been discussed a million times and we all know there are various ways to do this.

As far as the alcohol, I still feel that a tank should not need any additives to maintain bacteria levels sufficient enough to consume the nutrients in a reef tank. If it is nec. to add/boost bacteria levels then there is to much nutrient input or not enough substrate/or proper water conditions for bacteria that should already be there.

JMO.
Mike

[ldrhawke]

There are a number of different ways to address exporting issues. I'm not advocating how I export is the only way or for anyone else to copy it. But this works for me, as my tanks shots show. I'm simply looking for a way to improve and make reef keeping easier. I call it NPR....no realtionship to National Public Radio

It is my Nitrogen/Phosphate Ranching (NPR) system to grow and export nutrient rich bacteria........

As with any additive Vodka dosing can be easily misapplied and be a disaster, as has been described in some responses. I can also show you similar failures with every method for exporting or biologically treating waste in reef keeping; be it DSB, BB, Plenums, Fuges, Zeo, Phos removal medias,etc. It does not mean they don't work. For every failure I can show you someone that has succeeded.

I have read dozens of accounts of success and failure in using Vodka, with conventional tank addition methods. Most of the failures were because a user applied ten times too much, had no idea of how much to dose, and/or had no idea of what to look for as indicators to increase, reduce or stop dosing.

Nitrates are easy to export, but phosphate will slowy build and cause problems, since they get deposited in substrate and in the live rock.

I don't add Vodka to simply increase bacteria production. I use Vodka to build bacteria biomass in a manner that allows me to concentrate the biomass to make it easier export nitrates and phosphates on demand. Simply coating everything in the tank with a layer of bacteria can be dangerous. If biomass on the rocks and substrate does not get into the water column so it can be skimmed, it is simply redeposit into the tank as the bacteria dies. My method reduces the risk of phosphates being dissolved back into the system as the bacteria dies.

I've been doing this for nearly a year. It works. The short version....

At the top of my recirculation tank I built a 3" deep rectangular tray with two large holes on the bottom. Two coarse nylon bag filter set in these holes. Into the bags I add a handful of filter floss. All of my tank overflow is directed through the bag filters. As the bag filter begin to clog with waste, the water rises a couple of inches and over flows the tray into the recirculation tank.

My tank has periodic heavy recirculation and little waste ever collects on the bottom. The floss always has detrius and uneated food in it, so I always have nitrogen and phosphate available in the filter to limit the possiblity of the bacteria growth becoming N or P limited. If I am not using it in conjunction with Vodka dozing the bags and floss are emptied daily so they do not become a nitrate factory. It is a two minute job....10 minutes in the morning with a cup of coffee.

Before I go to bed, I only dose 1/2 ml of Vodka / 25 G of tank capacity but it is directly into the filter tray...not into the tank. I also dose an amino acid and dry phytoplankton mix with the Vodka to enrich the bacteria. Within two hours you can see the bags develop bacteria slime on the outside.

If my tank has excess nutrients, the floss inside the bag filter will clog and cause the water flowing into the tray to start over flowing within 6 to 8 hours. The outside of the bag looks like Santa's beard from the bacteria slime. When I am dosing Vodka I do not let the bags go more than 12 hours without being emptied, otherwise the bacteria slime starts breaking down and reentering the water column.

The over flow indicates to me the bag is loaded with a nitrogen and phosphate laden bacteria biomass. In the morning I toss the floss in the garbage....the most positive export I can think of. The floss is like picking up a hand full of snot or watery jello it is so filled with bacteria. My skimmer is working over time while I'm dosing Vodka.

If the tray doesn't over flow within 8 hours from the build up of biomass, I stop dosing Vodka for a week, and then start over again. The reduced bacteria grwoth indicates to me P and N are reduced enough. It maintains enough nutrients to keep softies and reduces them enough to keep SPS. The mandrin, tangs, etc; are all fat.

While I am dosing Vodka I don't feed the tank. Although bacteria build up in ther tank is reduced, if you look closely you can see that there is plenty of white bacteria film on all the surfaces and in the water column for the fish and coral to feed on. The fish love the white bacteria film and nibble on it all day.

Neither excess nitrates or phosphates, nor available coral food are an issue in my system. The tank is bare bottom. I can start and stop the system with out adverse effects. As I said, it works for me. I am not worried about my tank suddenly flipping from uncontrolled phosphate release, if for any reason pH or salinity changes.

[Craig Manoukian]

Awesome stuff ldrhawke! Very good and thorough description/explanation. Rock on!

[mps9506]

How do you determine the proper amount to dose your tank?

[Witfull]

i usually start with 4 shots,,,um wait,,,thats not for the tank~~

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Witfull

i usually start with 4 shots,,,um wait,,,thats not for the tank~~

I hope that's stoli and not aristocrat.

[Craig Manoukian]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

I only dose 1/2 ml of Vodka / 25 G of tank capacity

How was this arrived at as the prescribed dosage?

[Witfull]

Originally Posted by mps9506

I hope that's stoli and not aristocrat.

absolute red label

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by Witfull

absolute red label

ah, I'm not much of a vodka drinker. Does the tank react the same way to whiskey? I prefer Crown or Johnny Walker.

[ldrhawke]

I came up with the dosing rate based on several good articles on Vodka dosing from Europe. One was based on dosing for 18 months at about 1ml/100L average.

Initially I started using the ZEO process and I started to better understand what it was doing, and I then started I coming up with my own ideas in an attempt to improve or make easier. The ZEO process does a great job of making any user aware of the importance and dramatic affect from adding a few drops of anything. It emphases the importance of controlled feed and good observation. I believe the main reason for shaking the zeolite rock several times a day is as much for putting the bacteria into suspension, so that the skimmer can export N&P bacteria, as it is to feed the coral with enriched bacteria.

Initially I replaced ZEO food, an acetic acid base product, with Vodka. I am considering blending some vinegar with my Vodka to get more diverse bacteria population.

When I used the ZEO process, I used zeolite rock in the filter bags and covered them with filter floss. I did not notice any negative results. What I did notice was the filter floss was a better home for bacteria biomass than the zeolite rock. I quickly discovered more bacteria was growing heavier on the floss than on the rock.

In the ZEO process the zeolite rock has an affinity for grabbing ammonia and I assume feeding the bacteria with it. I believe the Vodka acts directly on grabbing ammonia and is probably working as well on direct ammonia removal.

It was also visually apparent that tossing the bacteria laden floss, rather than shaking the zeolite rocks, was a more efficient method of exporting N&P laden bacteria.

Using the ZEO process also made me aware of the importance of feeding amino acids to keep the system from becoming depleted by the pulling out too much along with the N&P laden bacteria. I use Reef Crystal salt that has more trace elements and I do 25% water changes every two weeks to address trace element depletion.

I found 1/2 ml per 100L works well the way I was using it with floss in NPR. I cut the normal dose in half because it didn't require a higher dose to work. Dosing more just caused more bacteria to bloom inside the tank on the walls and rock. I want some bloom on the tank rock and wall to pull out the residual P, but not a lot. Using only 1/2 ml per 100L slows down the export process. Too fast a rate of change, good or bad, is what often causes havoc in a reef tank.....except for water changes

It may take a month or two before you see measureable change. What you will notice is any problem algaes (bryopsis, cyano, dino, bubble, hair, etcalgaes) slow down in growth and then turn white over weeks as phosphate is removed. The Tangs and fish that wouldn't eat it bryopsis before start to eat the white bacteria covered remains.

DO NOT even consider using NPR unless you have a great skimmer.

It would be a waste of Johnny Walker Black or Red, and I'm not sure if the bacteria likes the taste of peat or oak.

[Craig Manoukian]

Good stuff, thanks again ldrhawke!

[gussy]

I'm currently doing a test on two identical 20 gallon tank. The only occupants are large crustaceans and a few damsels. Nitrate is at around 30 and both systems don't have skimmers.

Tank One: http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=CP2151.

Tank Two: Absolute Vodka (large bottle from Costco $15).

I'll let you guys know in a month.

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by gussy

I'm currently doing a test on two identical 20 gallon tank. The only occupants are large crustaceans and a few damsels. Nitrate is at around 30 and both systems don't have skimmers.

Tank One: http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...product=CP2151.

Tank Two: Absolute Vodka (large bottle from Costco $15).

I'll let you guys know in a month.

What are you trying to measure? What are you trying to evaluate?

If you don't skim or filter, you don't remove anything from the tanks. You are just reprocessing nutrients.

At least when you get done you will have a good bottle of Vodka.....I won't drink that other stuff even if it cost $4 more a bottle. A lot of flowery descriptive words for a dilute bottle of vinegar or alcohol with a few additves. Your Vodka was a much better buy.

Here is a typiclal curve on the application of Vodka in an estabished reef tank with skimming. :

[gussy]

Testing Nitrate reduction. Both have the Berlin Airlift skimmer. I have that Azo No3 thing from a long time ago. Purchased when I didn't know anything about anything.

The vodka is a bigger bottle too! Unfortunately I don't drink. I have an open bottle of Patron sitting in the fridge for two years. It's open only because the person who gave it to me insist that I try it immeidately. Maybe I can try Patron instead?