Inclinations of a no-filter media system.

[EagleEyes]

Ok, back from class and work.
That coral setting looks really nice, is that out on the reef where you live? The one at the front center, the white SPS, grows in giant fields in Hawaii. Just as the shelf drops off, you just see this drop and just an awesome scene of coral about 15-20 feet down.
So about your setup? What sort of light do i see in your sump under your main tank? Im thinking about fastening a PVC overflow in my ten gallon, then putting a sump below with some chaeto like you did. Until then i might find some Chaeto and put in my hangonback filter instead of the media in there now. i like your setup overall though. My LFS has a tank at the front next to the checkout where they have a 5 gallon pico with LPS's that i have fallen in love with and so im going to go for that here.
Also, is that just a normal 10 gallon tank made into a sump? I hear people talking about making one themselves, but i think it would be more economical for me to use the extra 10 ive got laying around. How did you fashion the division's onto the inside? It seems that using just some silicone wouldnt be that sturdy. Im new to sumps since i dont have one and have never made one.

[murkywaters]

I'm looking forward to your results.

[charlesr1958]

Originally Posted by EagleEyes

Ok, back from class and work.
That coral setting looks really nice, is that out on the reef where you live? The one at the front center, the white SPS, grows in giant fields in Hawaii. Just as the shelf drops off, you just see this drop and just an awesome scene of coral about 15-20 feet down..

Yes, that photo is a fairly typical sight, although there are of course great variations dependant on the localized habitat / environment.

So about your setup? What sort of light do i see in your sump under your main tank?.

Again, with no equipment available, I have had to use regular household compact florescents (6500K) for all of the tanks. Over the main tank, I have a 125w with two 55w and about eight or ten 26w bulbs. I was able to find one actinic T12 bulb at the freshwater store but being only 18w, its hardly noticable.

Also, is that just a normal 10 gallon tank made into a sump? I hear people talking about making one themselves, but i think it would be more economical for me to use the extra 10 ive got laying around. How did you fashion the division's onto the inside? It seems that using just some silicone wouldnt be that sturdy. Im new to sumps since i dont have one and have never made one.

Yup, just a regular tank that I siliconed two glass partitions into place within in it. You would be surprised at how strong sillicone is, in fact, its what holds all glass aquariums together. The trim you see on tanks looks like a frame that could act as support, but its really just decorative. On my sumps page, I have the basic outlines of making such a sump. As well as info links to articles that you may find of use as well.

I would have to say that by being forced into going "natural" it also forced me to learn a lot more about the biology of a system (as well as real reefs as well) from the sandbed on up. I give my DSB a great amount of the credit for being the most effective "filter" which keeps my system so trouble free while providing a habitat for a great many other life forms as well, which is what the word "reef" encompasses. The big issue for stateside sandbeds is keeping it functional. And what keeps it functional is all the micro infauna (worms mostly) that do the nutrient processing and keeps the sand from forming clumps by their movement through the sand. The problem is, such live sand is a habitat, which means there are predators and prey species. Over time, the balance between prey and predator becomes one sided. For now, about the only thing anyone can do is to replace a few pounds of live sand every few months to "seed" the sandbed again, or scrape some "gunk" out of live rock holding containers and hope you are getting what you want.
I think I have found the solution though, During my search for sand hitch hikers, I found a sand dwelling synaptid (related to sea cucumbers and are known as medussa worms), which remains down in the sand and just like a sea cucumber on the sand's surface, it injests the sand and cleans it while also, in its movement, keeps the sand from clumping. Does the same thing as all the tens of thousands of micro worms would do, but on a much grander scale, and without the worry of predators.




It is my hope to be able to send a half dozen of these to Dr. Ron Shimek for his evaluation of them, I already have an exporter who is willing to package them for me, as well as a contact (who has given me permits before for other things) at the airport's customs office. Am just gathering my pocket change to be able to ship out about ten pounds of weight through two day FedEx. Once Dr. Ron evaluates them, I then hope to get the exporter to start making them available to the hobby in the States. Who has already expressed an interest in them. After seeing what they do for my sandbed, I know this species will end up becoming a "life" saver for deep sand beds and will end the need to replace (and waste) perfectly good sand. Well, thats the plan anyways...lol

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

oh, and just for general info, this is a little article I put together during one of my visits to the exporter's facility.

Off to a Good Start

Chuck

[EagleEyes]

Wow, Thanks Charles!! You are a good writer! Have you taken classes or have a degree or something in literature?
Also, your medussa worm looks like a real good candidate for the really big aquariums. Most snails could definitely not do the things that that one worm is capable of. I have seen my bristleworms take one grain of my sand (1-3mm) and ingest it so as to digest the food off of it, but needless to say i did not realize the profundity of the incident. If you have one worm that can do that same job, (im not sure of the worms size) 200 or so times faster than the smaller microworms can, you have a buyer in a lot of reef aquarists. If it could handle my kind of semi sharp sandbed, i would get one! lol Good luck with that endeavour, i think that it would slingshot the hobby to new heights. Also, if you knew how to aquaculture them, you wouldnt have to hunt for them and you would have a sustainable source of income!

So your tank has a whole bunch of individual bulbs? That is remarkably smart! Cheaper too im sure. I find that the best discoveries are made in the places one would least expect. You would think that the person who has the most access to materials and facilities would make the most discoveries, but it only takes one genius and a ball point pen! Or chalk in einsteins' case. SO you officially have the coolest tank on this entire website according to me!
I am going to have to get a smaller tank for the refugium because the compartement below my tank barely fits the ten gallon. I might make a QT with it though. They have real small aquariums for hermit crabs and stuff so im just gonna get a smaller one! lol Ill check out the My Sumps Pages tom.. later on TODAY i guess i should say. 'night/mornin'! Im off to sleep..

[charlesr1958]

A writer? Actualy, according to my wife, I am an official idiot...lol. Thanks for the compliment on the tank, but am positive there are a great many here that would make me drool like a bulldog on a hot day.
When fully stretched out, those synaptids are just a little over a foot long and about the diameter of a thick pencil. In my 80 gallon tank, I have three of them living in the sandbed as well as a few sand dwelling sea urchins commonly called sea biscuits, I never see them either unless they come up against the glass. I did not add them on purpose and assume they came in with my sand from the wild as tiny juveniles and grew up in my sandbed. They also help to keep the sand turned over but I do not know what they are actualy eating.



Chuck

[Craig Manoukian]

Nice tank, er.......is that the real McCoy?

[charlesr1958]

As shown in the three tank photo, no, The main tank has gone through and is going through a coral species change out as I attempt to make it look a bit more natural as per what I see in the wild. That photo is meant to serve as a system wide shot and not as a "show" tank photo. In fact, this last monday, I removed a good many corals and rocks (returned to the ocean) and in a few hours, I will be out collecting some Pavona species to fill in the blanks from other species being removed. I also opened up the left side to get away from the shelf or flat wall look that it had. That and it gives the fish a lot more open swimming room. In a few weeks, I'll post a pic or two to update the "show" tanks view.

Chuck

[EagleEyes]

Got pics of the process, or of the tank at least, in mid stage?

[charlesr1958]

Will whip on the lights real quick and get a photo and be right back!...lol

[charlesr1958]

This is the tank as it was two weeks ago.



This is the tank as of about five minutes ago..lol, Keep in mind that I had to turn the lights on for the photo (its 9:30pm here) and not everything is open.



Any corals you note missing have been returned to the ocean and relocated to my sea urchin study site, which makes it easy for me to keep an eye on them since I have to visit that site once a week anyways. That large coral sitting on the sand (left side) is a plate coral which formed a hollow "hat" shape, easily just picked up off the sandbed (in the ocean). Thought it would make a nice centerpiece for that side of the tank. The pavona that you see on the right side was just added (collected) today and will be the dominate species of the tank, any blank areas you see will be filled with this species. The "coral" you see on the left side is fire coral, a Millepora species which is not really a true coral as it is classified in the hydrozoa family which includes the jellyfish. I have to be very aware of where my hand is when in the tank to avoid getting nailed by this "coral".

Anyways...lol, I guess my whole point within this thread was that a no filter media system is a very capable system. I like the fact that any and all food and particles are not trapped and wasted, makes for a much more natural balance, which takes time, and I guess that would be the only warning or caution, allow the system to adjust and give it a year to find its balance. Go slow!

Chuck

[charlesr1958]

I thought this article fit this discussion in case anyone has not seen it.

Reef Aquaria as Ecosystems - by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

Chuck

[EagleEyes]

Gooood article! I have been telling other people about it since it is now my best backup. Thanks, i might have seen it before but never understood the relevance of it with regards to my plight..lol Anyways im playing tennis tonight so i will check back around 10ish

[charlesr1958]

I just had a similiar discussion on another forum and will just cut and paste my thoughts from there to here:

"When I speak of filtration, or lack of, I'm only talking about those that use filter floss, sponges and such. If I had a decent skimmer, I would run it, simply because in an enclosed system, the corals release a lot of unseen mucus particles, which is what a skimmer pulls the most out of water. That mucus can be an irritant to all the corals. I would also run a cannister filter filled with the best grade of carbon that I could get, simply because there are a lot of organic byproducts produced by things just being alive in the tank, some of those compounds, if left to build up, can be harmfull.

While I usualy do weekly water changes, 15 gallons on a system that holds about 100 gallons of water, I have also been forced, due to weather, to let the system go for up to three months with no water changes and it never missed a beat. I do not do water changes so much as a means to dillute out pollutants, but as my only means available to replenish needed elements such as magnesium.

Back to the "filters", having seen how much detritus and plankton is always floating around in the ocean, and realizing that every coral out there depends on such as their food sources, it just didnt make sense to me to filter out such foods and throw them away and then dump more food into the tank to feed the corals.

With havng a great many worm species, copepods, amphipods and a host of other tiny life forms in the tank, they spawn a lot! and it is that spawn that the corals feed upon. Those life forms also act as THE major clean up crew as well. Having spaghetti worms, amphipods and a host of other worms to mop up the detritus, Bristle worms to pick up any left over fish/coral food all keeps the system in a much more natural balance. While feeding the tank at the same time.

Of course I am also going to end up with the end products of all that is alive, most obviously, the nitrates. But with having three tanks tied into each other, all with their own live sandbeds, that alone has been able to process/convert nitrates. Of course there are other means to deal with nitrates, such as mangroves and macro/micro algae.

What I try to do, and have done, is to look upon each "area" of my system as its own little habitat with a job to do. Just as its done in nature.

- Sandbed, not just a place for bacteria to live and do the nitrogen processing, but as a home for a gazillion other life forms (worms, pods and such) that in their entirety contribute as a clean up crew as well as being free live plankton for the corals.

- Live Rock, again, same as the live sand, the more critters living in and on it, the better your system will be, as well as looking and being more natural in function.

- Refugium, would not run a system without one now. Being that the main tank is always under constant attack from the predators / herbivores that we keep there out of neccesity (algae control for one), the refuge, if filled with a DSB and LOTS of live rock that is free of predators and/or too many herbivores, the amount of nutrient processing and live food production is staggering.

All of the above does depend on it all being given the time to mature and find its balance. Which can be done easily and with no danger to the tank by simply stopping the collection and removal of them by trapping filters. That and doing your best to initialy stock such life forms which can now be bought online (spaghetti worms, bristle worms, pods and such) as well as providing them with homes (rock and sand). "

Chuck

[EagleEyes]

Thanks Charles, I had an interesting idea today.. I am going to take a sample of my sand into my lab and check it out under a microscope so as to figure out how extensive my nutrient export system is in my ten gallon. If it is good enough i might look into getting ONE species of coral to place in it that would work to be a predator for my copepods and/or the algal free swimming mid stage organisms like the haploid and diploid forms of the algae that grows in the tank. I have already figured out that the eggs grow on the outside of the stalks of the algae, so i assume that they are being inseminated by the free swimming organisms. (Maybe i will figure that out in the process.) I really want to create a total environment in the aquarium so that it cycles just like a normal .. what was it called?.. Biota? i keep thinking there is a different word for it.. In any case, i want it to cycle it self so that i dont need to do anything except feed sometimes like the text above simply states. The reason i dont like machines or human made export systems is because they can fail and create a catastrophe. Humans make mistakes, but the only reason that biotic systems fail is because of pollution made by humans or human intervention of some kind. I like the thought of being a human that can out together a natural biotic system that doesn't fail on its own.