Inclinations of a no-filter media system. - Page 3

EagleEyes · 09-28-2005, 02:11 PM

DaveK, i have to say i found your site the most informative. I found it last night and couldnt print it so ill be reading more of it today. What i really want to know is how he kept his aquarium under natural sunlight as well because that, even today seems like it is a no brainer way of doing things. minus the fact that coral and those types of high light requiring organisms need the high output light to live.

DaveK · 09-28-2005, 06:49 PM

I am not sure about Lee Chin Eng's use of sunlight. It may not have been universal. In my very old copy ((C) 1967) of Salt-Water Aquarium Fish by Axelrod and Vorderwinkler, there are several pictures of aquariums set up by Lee Chin Eng. Some do not have an obvious source of sunlight, and the whole tank pictures show a more or less conventional reflector strip.

I'm also not sure about the corals involved. Looking at the old photos, I can not find any obvious live corals. I'm not saying that there were none in the tank, just that I couldn't see any. Then may have been small. The live rock looks like cured base rock, with some live on it. In some pictures the rock looks overgrown with algae. I will admit it's tough to tell because the pictures of that day tried to show off the fish rather than the invert live.

To quote from the book -

"Lee Chin Eng took pieces of living coral, complete with all the assorted life to be found along with it, and put it into the giant marine aquariums that he maintained in Djakarta. He took away all his filters and just had a small airstone with a few bubbles to give some slight movement to the water to better simulate nature. In a few days the coral 'came to life' with small anemones blossoming out, featherwoms, small crabs and other crustacea darting forth, and small polyps making their amazing appearance. For months the coral grew and more and more life was evident. As the coral grew, so did the fishes. ..."

In the 352 page book, only about one page of text is devoted to the natural aquarium method, and little specific information is given. The description sounds more like a description of live rock rather than coral. I would suspect that if there were corals here they would be small colonies on the base rock. There may have also been recordia, zoos or similar anemones on the rock. This would have looked like "live coral" in 1967. We would not expet to find a lot of other live creatures on a coral today. Also, the lighting systems of the day would be unable to support most of the corals we take for granted today. Most fixtures had only a single normal output "grow lux" flourescent bulb, or several 25w to 40w long incandescent bulbs. Of course if lots of sunlight were available, that could make the difference.

EagleEyes · 09-30-2005, 02:21 PM

Well it might be possible if there was a reflector to get the light from the ceiling to the aquarium. I could imagine a skylight might be a little less than sufficient, but your right about the pics of lee chin eng's tanks there was not over head bulb or fixture shown. Ill be looking more into this though. My tank actually looks something like a Chin lookalike. Ive got copepods running all over the place, those little brown tube worms, and a star fish that came in off of live rock. The only thing that is NOT good about it is the bristleworms. If i could post a pic i would.

BoomerD · 09-30-2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

The only thing that is NOT good about it is the bristleworms.

Bristleworms are NOT a bad thing. They eat dead and decaying matter in the tank. One of the most important parts of a good cleaner crew. Most people freak about them needlessly. As long as they don't get BIG, they are valuable to your tank.

Woodstock · 09-30-2005, 02:58 PM

I used to dislike bristleworms... I thought they were bad too. They have never bothered anything in my tank ... only my fingers when I accidentally touch them

DaveK · 09-30-2005, 06:01 PM

On sunlight, today there are systems that have a collector on your roof, and "pipe" it inside to where you want it. I don't think such an item was generally available in Lee Chin Eng's day.

Generally I agree about small bristleworms especially with a deep sand bed, but I do like to remove those big ones. I've pulled out some over 2' long.

EagleEyes · 09-30-2005, 06:43 PM

geez 2 feet??? thats insane! mine are only about 5 or 6 inches at this point, yet still too big for a ten gallon. none the less i was thinking about "catching" sunlight and inventing a device for that but apparently someone beat me to the idea. thanks about the info on bristleworms.

EagleEyes · 10-03-2005, 01:46 PM

Woodstock, i just viewed your ninety gallon, i was wondering whether that was the tank you were refering to. If so, what kind of tiny inverts do you have that arent harmed by the bristelworms?

EagleEyes · 10-05-2005, 02:28 PM

By the way, to all who posted in this thread, a skimmer is looking all that much more appealing to me now that i have a stable aquarium naturally.

Cougra · 10-05-2005, 04:24 PM

I may be late here but another concern I would have in regards to a completely unfiltered tank without water changes are the hormones that fish release. The build up of these hormones will stunt animals growth and effect their health. As far as I know, these aren't absorbed by marco algae. Water changes or chemical filtration are required to deal with any sort of allopathy in a tank.

EagleEyes · 10-06-2005, 02:30 PM

Really? that is something i hadnt even remotely thought about. Yeah that was right on time. I actually decided on a skimmer befopre you posted but your just backking up my decision. Awesome peice of little known information there Cougra!

Cougra · 10-06-2005, 04:19 PM

It's the release of these hormones is the origins of the saying "Fish will only grow to the size of their environment". This semi-myth started back before chemical filtration and the impoortance of water changes was completely understood and people noticed that their freshwater fish didn't grow nearly as large or as quickly as the ones in the wild do. After a lot of research into why this was occuring it was found the fish released growth inhibiting hormones along with other types of hormones. It's believed that this is done to ensure that a lake, pond or pool of water didn't become over populated and deplete the food source. I'm not 100% certain that saltwaterfish release similar types of hormones but until someone can conclusively say this isn't the case then I'm not taking any changes with it.

Witfull · 10-07-2005, 10:41 AM

Ah-Haaa...so i can keep 3 tangs in a 10 gallon tank if i dont do waterchanges,,,,back off tang police,,im taking this to the judge,,LOLOL

sorry,,,,had to have a laugh.

the addition of a skimmer i feel is a wise choice, one other thing i have to interject into this discussion is,,,the term "sucessfully kept" has changed alot over the past 40yrs.

Craig Manoukian · 10-07-2005, 11:48 AM

I don't do many water changes in my 20 gallon. Maybe 3 or 4 per year. I have a 4" DSB with 35 lbs of LR. I have soft corals, mushrooms and palythoas, and a mated pair of Maroon Clowns. The clean up crew is made up of Nassaurius Snails, a Fighting Conch, Scarlet Hermits, and one large Turbo Snail. I have a single small powerhead, a HOB Aquaclear 150 filter with live rock rubble in place of the filter media, and a Seaclone 100 skimmer.

I feed one cube of mysis every other day, and alternate with two small drops of Cyclopeeze. 110W of 10,000K PC lighting is the topper.

Maintenance is a breeze with just a little scraping of the glass every two weeks, Everything is on the grow and happy.

EagleEyes · 10-07-2005, 02:36 PM

You know craig, thats probably where im going with mine only ill replace my 10,000 k's with a 5600 k full spectrum. ( i have a ten gallon so the wattage will be about 40 for the 5600 k. ) I would like some zoanthids though. Cougra actually has a nice gallery of Zoanthids. (Kudos Cougra)

09-28-2005, 02:11 PM	#31 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. DaveK, i have to say i found your site the most informative. I found it last night and couldnt print it so ill be reading more of it today. What i really want to know is how he kept his aquarium under natural sunlight as well because that, even today seems like it is a no brainer way of doing things. minus the fact that coral and those types of high light requiring organisms need the high output light to live.

09-28-2005, 06:49 PM	#32 (permalink)
DaveK Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Philadelpahia, PA Posts: 618 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. I am not sure about Lee Chin Eng's use of sunlight. It may not have been universal. In my very old copy ((C) 1967) of Salt-Water Aquarium Fish by Axelrod and Vorderwinkler, there are several pictures of aquariums set up by Lee Chin Eng. Some do not have an obvious source of sunlight, and the whole tank pictures show a more or less conventional reflector strip. I'm also not sure about the corals involved. Looking at the old photos, I can not find any obvious live corals. I'm not saying that there were none in the tank, just that I couldn't see any. Then may have been small. The live rock looks like cured base rock, with some live on it. In some pictures the rock looks overgrown with algae. I will admit it's tough to tell because the pictures of that day tried to show off the fish rather than the invert live. To quote from the book - "Lee Chin Eng took pieces of living coral, complete with all the assorted life to be found along with it, and put it into the giant marine aquariums that he maintained in Djakarta. He took away all his filters and just had a small airstone with a few bubbles to give some slight movement to the water to better simulate nature. In a few days the coral 'came to life' with small anemones blossoming out, featherwoms, small crabs and other crustacea darting forth, and small polyps making their amazing appearance. For months the coral grew and more and more life was evident. As the coral grew, so did the fishes. ..." In the 352 page book, only about one page of text is devoted to the natural aquarium method, and little specific information is given. The description sounds more like a description of live rock rather than coral. I would suspect that if there were corals here they would be small colonies on the base rock. There may have also been recordia, zoos or similar anemones on the rock. This would have looked like "live coral" in 1967. We would not expet to find a lot of other live creatures on a coral today. Also, the lighting systems of the day would be unable to support most of the corals we take for granted today. Most fixtures had only a single normal output "grow lux" flourescent bulb, or several 25w to 40w long incandescent bulbs. Of course if lots of sunlight were available, that could make the difference.

09-30-2005, 02:21 PM	#33 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. Well it might be possible if there was a reflector to get the light from the ceiling to the aquarium. I could imagine a skylight might be a little less than sufficient, but your right about the pics of lee chin eng's tanks there was not over head bulb or fixture shown. Ill be looking more into this though. My tank actually looks something like a Chin lookalike. Ive got copepods running all over the place, those little brown tube worms, and a star fish that came in off of live rock. The only thing that is NOT good about it is the bristleworms. If i could post a pic i would.

09-30-2005, 02:58 PM	#35 (permalink)
Woodstock The Wand Geek was here. ;) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 21,664 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. I used to dislike bristleworms... I thought they were bad too. They have never bothered anything in my tank ... only my fingers when I accidentally touch them __________________ ~Doni Marie~ *GOT ICH???* ~120 Reef Chronicle ~ *~29 gal QT/Hospital tank~* *~3 gal Pico~* "Energy and persistence conquer all things." Benjamin Franklin __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________ 120 mixed reef, dual Reeflux 10k 250 MH, dual Actinic t5s,AquaController III, ASM g3, 2x Korallia #3, Mag 9.5 return

09-30-2005, 06:01 PM	#36 (permalink)
DaveK Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Philadelpahia, PA Posts: 618 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. On sunlight, today there are systems that have a collector on your roof, and "pipe" it inside to where you want it. I don't think such an item was generally available in Lee Chin Eng's day. Generally I agree about small bristleworms especially with a deep sand bed, but I do like to remove those big ones. I've pulled out some over 2' long.

09-30-2005, 06:43 PM	#37 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. geez 2 feet??? thats insane! mine are only about 5 or 6 inches at this point, yet still too big for a ten gallon. none the less i was thinking about "catching" sunlight and inventing a device for that but apparently someone beat me to the idea. thanks about the info on bristleworms.

10-03-2005, 01:46 PM	#38 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. Woodstock, i just viewed your ninety gallon, i was wondering whether that was the tank you were refering to. If so, what kind of tiny inverts do you have that arent harmed by the bristelworms?

10-05-2005, 02:28 PM	#39 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. By the way, to all who posted in this thread, a skimmer is looking all that much more appealing to me now that i have a stable aquarium naturally.

10-05-2005, 04:24 PM	#40 (permalink)
Cougra Dragon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 2,216 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. I may be late here but another concern I would have in regards to a completely unfiltered tank without water changes are the hormones that fish release. The build up of these hormones will stunt animals growth and effect their health. As far as I know, these aren't absorbed by marco algae. Water changes or chemical filtration are required to deal with any sort of allopathy in a tank. __________________ Michelle Just because something CAN be done, it doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done!

10-06-2005, 02:30 PM	#41 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. Really? that is something i hadnt even remotely thought about. Yeah that was right on time. I actually decided on a skimmer befopre you posted but your just backking up my decision. Awesome peice of little known information there Cougra!

10-06-2005, 04:19 PM	#42 (permalink)
Cougra Dragon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 2,216 View Gallery Karma Komment	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. It's the release of these hormones is the origins of the saying "Fish will only grow to the size of their environment". This semi-myth started back before chemical filtration and the impoortance of water changes was completely understood and people noticed that their freshwater fish didn't grow nearly as large or as quickly as the ones in the wild do. After a lot of research into why this was occuring it was found the fish released growth inhibiting hormones along with other types of hormones. It's believed that this is done to ensure that a lake, pond or pool of water didn't become over populated and deplete the food source. I'm not 100% certain that saltwaterfish release similar types of hormones but until someone can conclusively say this isn't the case then I'm not taking any changes with it. __________________ Michelle Just because something CAN be done, it doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done!

10-07-2005, 11:48 AM	#44 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 15,732 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. I don't do many water changes in my 20 gallon. Maybe 3 or 4 per year. I have a 4" DSB with 35 lbs of LR. I have soft corals, mushrooms and palythoas, and a mated pair of Maroon Clowns. The clean up crew is made up of Nassaurius Snails, a Fighting Conch, Scarlet Hermits, and one large Turbo Snail. I have a single small powerhead, a HOB Aquaclear 150 filter with live rock rubble in place of the filter media, and a Seaclone 100 skimmer. I feed one cube of mysis every other day, and alternate with two small drops of Cyclopeeze. 110W of 10,000K PC lighting is the topper. Maintenance is a breeze with just a little scraping of the glass every two weeks, Everything is on the grow and happy. __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

10-07-2005, 02:36 PM	#45 (permalink)
EagleEyes Limpet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Tucson Posts: 147 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Re: Inclinations of a no-filter media system. You know craig, thats probably where im going with mine only ill replace my 10,000 k's with a 5600 k full spectrum. ( i have a ten gallon so the wattage will be about 40 for the 5600 k. ) I would like some zoanthids though. Cougra actually has a nice gallery of Zoanthids. (Kudos Cougra)

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