Reef trends and Ethics

[Witfull]

this has been on my mind for some time now and have to jot down a few thoughts,,,,

in my many years of reefing, i have seen many "gotta have" trends. way back when when, elegance coral was suddenly the rage and pieces went for literally $100's of dollars. ive seen the zoanthid zealousness, ricordia rage, acro frenzy. so many time a certain coral becomes the "IN" thing to have.i am not saying this is a bad thing...sometimes all it takes is exposure to the public as to its beauty.

now on to the ethical part,

in this article, i both agree and disagree with with Anthony Calfo.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php

Indeed, many of these trendy creatures are very beautiful and popular for good reason. But the extremes to which some folks get caught up in during the buying frenzy are, well… extreme. An artificial and grossly inflated market price then emerges.

most definately too

Do you really think for a moment that the island collectors, who earn mere dollars per day or pennies per piece for other pretty, but “common,” corals, get rewarded with tens or hundreds of dollars for finding the trendy coral of the week?

no they dont, but as he says,,lemme be the devils advocate here, when a car, say Chevy PT Cruiser, is made, the factory workers get X$$ for making them, suddenly there is a rage for them and the price of the car goes up $5,000. do the workers that actually make the car see any of that? no, the profit goes to the "company" the "Middleman" and the "Retailer". the workers get what...i hate to say it,,,they get a job and paid to do it.

You have my solemn promise that in the real world (industry), the early seller links in the chain of distribution are not earning anything beyond traditional (and appropriate) price points for such animals. The collectors, brokers, and larger wholesalers are in the sensible and savvy business of turning over living commodities fast – hours to days - if they are to succeed and be profitable. It’s good business for them, and it’s just plain good business (ethically and financially) to get live organisms into the hands of the final consumers as soon as possible. It’s the animals’ best chance for survival, it keeps the “product” in the best condition for the consumer, and it frankly earns the best profits for everyone in between. It’s a beautiful thing. I love to see good business conducted and rewarded. I also like to see less than optimal business and bad consumer habits tamed or trained fast – hence my small contribution here.

i totally agree with this also...but as he states this is the early chain-translated getting it from the collection post to the wholesalers in LA. then repacked and sent out. (now if you dont believe cherry picking here doesnt happen, take off the rose glasses.

now once again I'll put on my DA hat,

trading aquarists or small business merchants – who justify their exorbitant prices with supply and demand. “Supply and demand" is an excuse that gets abused too often and shamelessly, in my opinion. If this were not true, how then would you define or even recognize the existence of price gouging... For example, after a natural disaster such as a hurricane, do you think that merchants who suddenly raise the prices of bottled water, food and gasoline are “price-gouging?” I do. That’s not a supply and demand issue… it goes far beyond factorable expenses and traditional price points

this is such a bad analogy. these corals are not a neccessity, you wont die with out it! i also disagree with the usage of supply and demand here,,,its demand! say i have 2 zippo lighters for sale, someone walks in after seeing his friend black inlaid one, sees mine for sale and sucks it up, then his friend comes in,,,grabs one up,,hmm i think, and raise the price on it a dollar, another sells really fast, the next one i raise the price another 2 dollars,,it sells fast,,then a guy walks in and i dont have one, he really wants it,,so order more,,,and raise the price 10 dollars,,,and they still sell. its not that i cant get them,,,its that people WANT them. its called capitalism and it works very well. Mr. Calfo admits that it does

The money-hungry individual (that’s not a criticism… I love Capitalism!) can serve himself best and still be a “good guy.” To do anything less is a patent admission that you have no long term plans for the future and are just trying to scheme in the moment.

this is where the separation is,,,you cant lump the scammers in the same bucket. there are things a business has to do to stay viable. included in these things is....charging more for items in demand. it helps cut the profit/loss columb. is it unethical for companies tha have multiple retail outlets to sell the same thing for a different price due to geographic location? no, they are basing price on what that area can afford and willing to pay. and yes this happens everyday across america.

As consumers, we control the price of any good or service: if we don't buy it, they won’t sell it!

Witty stands and applauds,,,this is the absolute truth.

The best defense against bad business practices is simply being an educated consumer. I just wish everyone were as privy to industry news, experience and gossip as some of us salty dogs are. At first, it was mildly amusing for me to see corallimorphs that were listed for many years as “assorted Discosoma” species get renamed overnight for weekly stocklists as “assorted Pacific Ricordea” when the Ricordea fad hit big. Heehee… the same suppliers, the same colors/species… but suddenly better sales overnight for cherry pickers and online e-tailers by renaming them for offerings consumers were willing to buy. Man… what a country!

like you said,,,I love Capitalism. its called "marketing".

We either will tolerate the manipulations, or we won’t. And we will ultimately have to accept the market that we ourselves create!

once again,,,you are very correct, we as the consumer have the power of the wallet.

Does $600 for a tiny patch of zoanthids with a ridiculous marketing name sound overpriced to you? Then let the coral remain unsold.

but if you want to be in the Trendy, gotta have it while its hot club" you will pay the dues to get in. like your friend that you told us about. some people want to be in that club, and that is their desision and are free to make it. its their money and it makes them happy.

now on to part 2 skimmers. it basically feeds in to the demand and bragging rights here too. some people just get caught up in the "mine is bigger than yours" game or trying to keep up with the Jones. this is not a Reefkeeping phenomenon, it happens everywhere and with just about every "luxury commodity.

So many of these top-shelf, top-price skimmers are simply models of excess.

agreed.

I can promise you, though, that I have depth in my experience in aquatic science and a valid opinion about certain products, and hobby trends and history. I offer some of them here as merely that – my opinions – and as but one component in your information gathering process. Make an informed decision based on an intelligent consensus, but don’t discredit your own instincts, even if unpopular. And remember, there are traders out there thinking that if you are dumb enough to buy it, they are smart enough to sell it to you.

once again i agree, it is up to the person to make the best desision for their needs, be it for their tank or ego.

[mps9506]

Witty,
If I wasn't at work I'd post a longer reply, but I just had to say, I like your thinking.
I'll get more indepth later though.

[Woodstock]

Hummm... in a word.. capitalism. Welcome to America. This 'hot trend' of different corals/skimmers that his article targets is true. Just remember, it's not only corals that capitalism accepts with open arms.. it's in every corner of our economy and throughout the middle... autos, clothing, tennis shoes, sunglasses.... We as consumers decide what we purchase. We're not told what to buy and when.. WE choose. I say if you want a $600 coral, go for it .. just take pics and let me drool over it . And for the 'parent that clothes his child in potatoe sacks as he drops several hundred dollars on an expensive coral' .. well, that's poor parenting skills, selfishness, and skewed priorities... none of which specifically apply to reefing topics. I'm not annoyed by such spendy practices no more than seeing a rollsroyce drive down a highway... It's life... enjoy~

[Sharkbait]

Calfo miss E-mailed me that article before it hit the presses awhile ago, I found it interesting. I've seen the crazes come and go, they will go on and on due to humans competitive nature,IMO. I think it's all good for the industry, prices rising and falling is a part of America commerce in general, it dictates what the public is after.

[Rougiem]

Witty: All very valid and well articulated points. We all have opinions but reality of the issues is the bottom line. Although ego can play a role in these issues IMHO it absolutely illogical to have an ego over your skimmer or corals you own. America is a very materialistic society and perpetuates this thinking. Of course you can have what you want, but I do not think showboating it serves any purpose. I think this attitude of having so many material things is more of a deep rooted problem with not be secure with oneself.

Cheers!

[Witfull]

i agree with you Rodger, but thats not the point of the article, what i see being said is, selling corals for as much as people are willing and i repeat willing to pay is wrong immoral and unscupulous and then in a paragraph later, applaud capitalism, but frown upon marketing stratagies.

what i see is this,,,people are mad because at one time in the not so distant past a "trendy" coral was cheap, and therefore not desirable,and they didnt want to buy a common coral. then it became popular, and the price skyrocketed, now this same person wants the coral but cant/wont pay what the market price is...all i have to say is too bad. if you didnt like it when it was cheap,,,why do you like it now? hence the issues you bring up. but simply balking cause you cant afford the "in" club gives you no right to force your way in.

i like what i like,,,no one has to tell me,,you gotta get this or your not cool,,,ive been not cool for most of my life,,or as i like to think,,,im so cool you cant see it...lol

ive been in the industry on the collection, wholesale and retail sides,,ive seen many things and take everything for what it is,,,business. there is one acronym that i have applied to business,,,GTM, "get that money". as long as you are selling an item, the buyer knows what he is buying and you represent it correctly i have no issue with it.

but when you lump liars, scammers, and legit marketers in one bucket,,,i have to say something,,,you simply cannot do that,,,what if i said all the well known "reef commentators" were out to promote themselves over the hobby? i would be wrong, as is the summation of this article.

these are my opinions...im entitled to them and i bear no ill will to Anthony Calfo, we have had discussions before and agreed and disagreed..thats what makes America so great,,no one gets sent to a gulag or shot for their opinion.

[Rougiem]

Originally Posted by Witfull

i agree with you Rodger, but thats not the point of the article, what i see being said is, selling corals for as much as people are willing and i repeat willing to pay is wrong immoral and unscupulous and then in a paragraph later, applaud capitalism, but frown upon marketing stratagies.

these are my opinions...im entitled to them and i bear no ill will to Anthony Calfo, we have had discussions before and agreed and disagreed..thats what makes America so great,,no one gets sent to a gulag or shot for their opinion.

I must also agree with you too Witty. I do follow the article and it sent me off on a tangent after analyzing what I read but you are very correct. Yes being able to agree and disagree is great. Having your "eyes open" makes the discussion even more enjoyable!

Cheers!

[Eric]

I'm with you wit what about the gotta have equipment it's the same as corals

Run out and BUy this or your tank will fail and not do well

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Witfull

ive been not cool for most of my life,,

It's good to know that, with such a controversial topic, at least there's one thing we can all agree on.


Hehe!

[Travis]

I already posted my thoughts, they're probably more appropriate here though:

Originally Posted by Travis

And the winner of most controversial coral of the year goes to..... (drum roll) Acanthastrea!!!

Seriously, though, I understand both points of view. Inflated prices? Yes. But artificially inflated? I'm not convinced that a very small handful of people can do such a thing. In fact, I'm not so sure they would want to invest the time and energy. I mean, everyone knew it was a matter of time before collectors started bringing in acans by the barrel.

I remember seeing rics at over $100 per polyp, and certain zoanthids, but I don't remember the outcry with those. I tend to think the only difference was, there wasn't a set group of people to whom others could point the finger.

Seems to me, there are different types of hobbyists- those who are "collectors" and those who simply choose the corals that please them the most. Downset, for example, is a collector- he states chasing corals is half the fun. Nothing wrong with that. I was a zoanthid collector for a while. Obsessed, I wanted them all. Now I choose to keep what I find pleasing, and think that's fine too.

My theory: The collectors out there are willing to pay a premium, and always will be. Which angers the types who want to keep what pleases them, because they see something that pleases them but it's too expensive because of supply and demand.

Me? I'm not angry. I think acans are beautiful corals, and some day, when the price comes down, I'll certainly have one.

Rant over.

[Witfull]

ok,,,now for my comment on the part of the scammers,,i detest you. those that sell bogus items and set up auctions on eBay with out ever having the item or the correct item, come visit me at work for a few yrs,,id love to see ya. this is a despiccble part of the reefing community, and the online world in general. to the "salty dog" and "knowedgeable reefer' and those that can just smell BS, we see these auctions,,notice discrepencies...heck we see blatent stolen pictures. but if you are not knowedgable, then dont go to ebay to stock the tank. caveate emptor.

this is where our forum world truly pays off, anthonys voice, my voice, and thousands of others. we help eachother, try to guide. thats all i ever wanted to do. and trying to now. everything isnt rosey,,,nor is it evil (crabs excluded)

[mps9506]

i find it funny that he praises the way the marine ornamentals trade works. he praises the efficiency of the whole process, but then mentions how little the collectors get paid.
IMO the process in many areas is very flawed. There is little respect for the organisms that are collected or the areas they are collected from (Not all areas of course). The reason it is so "efficient" is that there is so much livestock shipped it makes up for the high mortality rate of marine livestock.

I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of the collection buisness, I only know what happens from LA to my store, so I can't even attempt to say it can be better. I'm just here to be critical
As someone who sells marine livestock, I'm just want to say I will sell my livestock for what I can get for it. If someone was willing to pay me $100 for a percula clown, I would sell it for $100. Greedy or not, that's what pays my bills. I'm not in buisness to sell stuff for cheap or give it all away to my buddies.
Also FWIW, coral prices almost always come down at some point in time, as most corals grow and are propogated and traded amongst collectors. when stuff is hard to get it is expensive, when it is easy to get it is much cheaper.
Pretty simple, don't get mad at the process. It isn't difficult now to trade for lords, you don't need to dish out $600 anymore. You don't need to wait 5 years to get an oregon tort anymore. It all goes in cycles. This hobby is all about patience.