DSB...Let's Discuss! - Page 7

Curtswearing · 01-21-2004, 02:54 PM

BoomeD,

That's the whole point of the New Frontiers forum. To openly discuss issues without fear of being attacked for having a different opinion. That way you can have whatever kind of system you want but know the consequences of the different methods.

I'm at work and I read quickly and type when I'm on the phone so I will likely be out of this conversation for long periods of time.

I think what we need to do is ask ourself some questions.

What are we trying to accomplish with DSB's, non-DSB's, Fuges, etc. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Once you know what you are trying to accomplish, then you can maybe hit the issues from multiple angles.

Craig Manoukian · 01-21-2004, 03:42 PM

Good advice Curt!

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 03:59 PM

Yep because if there was an exact science to this, we wouldn't even be threading about them so much. I wonder if FW forums are as bad?

Craig Manoukian · 01-21-2004, 04:24 PM

This the challenge, eh? "Just trying to recreate God's perfection in a glass bowl"! It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination!

mojoreef · 01-21-2004, 05:49 PM

Maybe I can muddy up the Phosphate thing for a few folks. P is in everything, so it is a very key player in the game of life. It is also a nutrient and a food for alot of things. As it relates to our tanks, Our test kits can only measure inorganic forms of P. Call it food that has not been eaten yet. The vast majority of P inour tank are in the form of organic. Call it food that is part of some type of critter, (bacteria/algae,nematodes, bound to argonite sand, everything really). Your reef tank is a very aggressive in regards to eating. bacteria/algae and so on will have massive population increase to keep up with the food surplus. If you get a reading of PO4 inorganic phosphate, it is telling you that your p is saturated to the point where in can not be bound by anything any more and thus it stays soluable in your water. To much P can cause all sorts of problems from algae blooms to not allowing corals to calcify (cant make skelitons) and so on. so we dont want to go thier.
Ok how does this work with a DSB. with a DSB you get hit 2 ways. One is that the sand itself comes into your tank fully bound with P, from its previous life. You put it in. Now as your anaerobic zone builds up, the ph level in the lower reaches of the bed goes down, as it goes down it melts the sand and thus unbinds the P that was once locked in it. The P upwells and is jumped on by both bacteria and algae. Which leads us to the second problem. Now if you take this P that is being freed with i the bed and then add the P we get from AS mixes, and foods and additives and so much more, we end up with a lot. Now what you end up with is a biological cycle. the bacteria that bind up the P have a population explosion, but as the P deminishes the bacteria end up starting to die plus they dont really have a long life span anyway (sometimes only 12 hours). anyway as they perish they release all the P and N that they have absorbed or eaten, this is immediately bound up by Vegitation, Usually Cyanobacteria, hair algae, and most other pest forms of algae. Now the same thing happens all over again, the algae blooms as the food source is available, until it begin to use it all up, them it begins to die and rot, when this happens the bacteria once again take advantage of the situation and begin to once again bloom. Anyway it is a never ending cycle, that only gets worse with the addition of foods everyday.

On Rob Toonans tank you must keep one thing in mind, his tank has a very very low bioload and only contains corals that love a nutrient rich enviroment. Also from what I understand, it was broken down in the middle of that run of time.

Hope it helped

Mike

Maxx · 01-21-2004, 10:15 PM

Actually Mike,
I think that Rob Toonan's tank was broken down after 14 years or so, and then "sectioned off" to many people. He posted on RAG about this before this forum got started. I believe its the thread that Nikki linked to.
Nick

wooddood · 01-22-2004, 05:47 AM

very well said curt i could'nt agree more.

Gina · 01-22-2004, 06:46 AM

Interesting read Mike. Thank you!

middletonmark · 01-22-2004, 07:31 AM

I've been looking for a good explanation of this Mike ... and you just provided me one. Now to synthesize it into my own head, so I can explain it elsewhere

Great read, folks. It's nice to have this a polite discussion [kudos to RS!]

mojoreef · 01-22-2004, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Actually Mike, I think that Rob Toonan's tank was broken down after 14 years or so, and then "sectioned off" to many people. He posted on RAG about this before this forum got started. I believe its the thread that Nikki linked to.

Are you sure Nick? it was my impression that somewhere midway in the lifespan of the tank it was moved to a new location, I thought to his parents house when he went to college?? I will see if I can find out.

MIke

Scooterman · 01-22-2004, 08:41 AM

I also read that mike, then after he finished school he moved, his father was taking care of it the last few years. He gave it to a friend. I think he had 5 fish, corals were pretty darn nice. I don't think the DSB was actully all that deep though, looked like 3 or 4 inches. Your buddy RC has the link.
There was no mention of sump system, or any other equipment or how it was kept up, nothing on the feeding either.

01-21-2004, 02:54 PM	#91 (permalink)
Curtswearing Golden Moray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,596 View Gallery Karma Komment	BoomeD, That's the whole point of the New Frontiers forum. To openly discuss issues without fear of being attacked for having a different opinion. That way you can have whatever kind of system you want but know the consequences of the different methods. I'm at work and I read quickly and type when I'm on the phone so I will likely be out of this conversation for long periods of time. I think what we need to do is ask ourself some questions. What are we trying to accomplish with DSB's, non-DSB's, Fuges, etc. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Once you know what you are trying to accomplish, then you can maybe hit the issues from multiple angles. __________________ In memory of Fluffy, please pause before hitting enter---being nice is free. Click for ReefKeeping FAQ'S Click for Product Reviews Click for Photo ID Gallery http://curtcpapfs.com/downloads/1Curt.jpg

01-21-2004, 03:42 PM	#92 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 17,903 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Good advice Curt! __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

01-21-2004, 03:59 PM	#93 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	Yep because if there was an exact science to this, we wouldn't even be threading about them so much. I wonder if FW forums are as bad? __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-21-2004, 04:24 PM	#94 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 17,903 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	This the challenge, eh? "Just trying to recreate God's perfection in a glass bowl"! It's not easy by any stretch of the imagination! __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

01-21-2004, 05:49 PM	#95 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Maybe I can muddy up the Phosphate thing for a few folks. P is in everything, so it is a very key player in the game of life. It is also a nutrient and a food for alot of things. As it relates to our tanks, Our test kits can only measure inorganic forms of P. Call it food that has not been eaten yet. The vast majority of P inour tank are in the form of organic. Call it food that is part of some type of critter, (bacteria/algae,nematodes, bound to argonite sand, everything really). Your reef tank is a very aggressive in regards to eating. bacteria/algae and so on will have massive population increase to keep up with the food surplus. If you get a reading of PO4 inorganic phosphate, it is telling you that your p is saturated to the point where in can not be bound by anything any more and thus it stays soluable in your water. To much P can cause all sorts of problems from algae blooms to not allowing corals to calcify (cant make skelitons) and so on. so we dont want to go thier. Ok how does this work with a DSB. with a DSB you get hit 2 ways. One is that the sand itself comes into your tank fully bound with P, from its previous life. You put it in. Now as your anaerobic zone builds up, the ph level in the lower reaches of the bed goes down, as it goes down it melts the sand and thus unbinds the P that was once locked in it. The P upwells and is jumped on by both bacteria and algae. Which leads us to the second problem. Now if you take this P that is being freed with i the bed and then add the P we get from AS mixes, and foods and additives and so much more, we end up with a lot. Now what you end up with is a biological cycle. the bacteria that bind up the P have a population explosion, but as the P deminishes the bacteria end up starting to die plus they dont really have a long life span anyway (sometimes only 12 hours). anyway as they perish they release all the P and N that they have absorbed or eaten, this is immediately bound up by Vegitation, Usually Cyanobacteria, hair algae, and most other pest forms of algae. Now the same thing happens all over again, the algae blooms as the food source is available, until it begin to use it all up, them it begins to die and rot, when this happens the bacteria once again take advantage of the situation and begin to once again bloom. Anyway it is a never ending cycle, that only gets worse with the addition of foods everyday. On Rob Toonans tank you must keep one thing in mind, his tank has a very very low bioload and only contains corals that love a nutrient rich enviroment. Also from what I understand, it was broken down in the middle of that run of time. Hope it helped Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

01-21-2004, 10:15 PM	#96 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,079 View Gallery Karma Komment	Actually Mike, I think that Rob Toonan's tank was broken down after 14 years or so, and then "sectioned off" to many people. He posted on RAG about this before this forum got started. I believe its the thread that Nikki linked to. Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

01-22-2004, 05:47 AM	#97 (permalink)
wooddood the wood dude Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: CARMEL. INDIANA Posts: 3,450 View Gallery Karma Komment	very well said curt i could'nt agree more. __________________ 120 gal/in wall tank/starboard substraight/2 250 watt 10k xm metal halides/ 4 55watt 03 actinics/150lbs lr/scwd on return/scwd on a closed loop/aquaclear aquatics 200 pro wetdry w/skimmer. ask all the questions you have if we cant answer it we'll make up some thing. remember patience is the key to a kick ass reef. dave.

01-22-2004, 06:46 AM	#98 (permalink)
Gina Moderator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Indiana Posts: 8,823 View Gallery Karma Komment	Interesting read Mike. Thank you! __________________ Gina and Mark's 75 Visit Our Sponsors Gina's Cube Gina

01-22-2004, 07:31 AM	#99 (permalink)
middletonmark Star Polyps Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 165 View Gallery Karma Komment	I've been looking for a good explanation of this Mike ... and you just provided me one. Now to synthesize it into my own head, so I can explain it elsewhere Great read, folks. It's nice to have this a polite discussion [kudos to RS!] __________________ smile smile smile

01-22-2004, 08:41 AM	#101 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	I also read that mike, then after he finished school he moved, his father was taking care of it the last few years. He gave it to a friend. I think he had 5 fish, corals were pretty darn nice. I don't think the DSB was actully all that deep though, looked like 3 or 4 inches. Your buddy RC has the link. There was no mention of sump system, or any other equipment or how it was kept up, nothing on the feeding either. __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

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