DSB...Let's Discuss! - Page 6

Hooked · 01-21-2004, 01:40 PM

"as of right now, i think i understand phosphates as well as i understand black holes....i know they exist...i know they can suck...i know they're everywhere....but if someone asked me "what exactly are phosphates?"....i think my answer would suck.."

ROFLMAO

NaH2O · 01-21-2004, 01:42 PM

Phosphate or Nitrogen

Still got PO4 - excellent posts by Curtswearing and mojoreef

Also read the thread I linked above your post...good information there as well.

LaquitaWilliams, one thing you will see by my posts, is I'm never short on links, whether or not they have anything to do with what we're discussing...lol

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 01:43 PM

This is also covered here somewhere LOL,
Clear as Mud huh!

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 01:44 PM

oh I see, Nikki is always one step ahead of me!

Hooked · 01-21-2004, 01:49 PM

LaquitaWilliams you are cracking me up

But seriously...

I'm not sure if I understand "proper sandbed husbandry"

Most critters, nassarius snails, starfish and sand cukes, only stir the top layer, but that's good, because you want the lower part to remain undisturbed. Right? So if you add a pistol shrimp that will totally rearrange the sandbed; that's bad and defeats the purpose.

Other than providing appropriate critters to stir the top, good water circulation, blasting detritus off of rock and skimming are the remaining parts of good sandbed husbandry. Right?

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 01:58 PM

You see Katrina, that is where I had part of my problem, where do you get the proper critters as prescribed by Dr. Ron? According to him, you can't just go out and buy it, almost saying you need to dive deep and scoop up your own. Hey I don't know! Point I was thinking at lunch just now, I love to visit the large aquariums whenever I travel, Never seen a huge tank with a DSb, commercial grade anyways. Could you imagine these 5000g tanks with a huge DSB? Not, all BB! Point to think about, the only sand beds I've seen was in the smaller reef tanks the had, all thin and specialized corals in each, including critters, but these are few and far apart. Ok Nikki will probably beat me on this also LOL!

Hooked · 01-21-2004, 02:00 PM

Good point Scott, and congrats--you beat Nikki

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 02:03 PM

Yeaaa!

LaquitaWilliams · 01-21-2004, 02:11 PM

nikki, thanks for the links....i read them...they helped a bit..one of the guys was talking about starting a siphon with a micron sock to vacuum/clean the substrate....if i understood right, no sand would be removed with his method, only whatever nastiness is stirred up manually....this way the water would be replaced without having to do a water change and add more n or p with new salt....

seems like it could be promising...but time-consuming....my herbal medication creates a lot of down-time for me....

there was also mention of how fresh new live sand from the store is already packed with phosphates....perhaps there is a way to treat this sand before adding it to our tanks??

NaH2O · 01-21-2004, 02:11 PM

LOL - well, Scott, I was busy making copies of my notes for you

Well, IMO (which isn't much) DSBs aren't what they were originally sold as. If you read back to the quotes Mike posted of Dr. Ron's - there is definite contradiction. In my view they were supposed to be this set-it and forget it type system. Now, after reading, I can't imagine having as many critters as is needed to function to its fullest - again, my view. What about the phosphates? - they will be there - nothing to do about it, but try to minimize the addition of more than necessary. Having said all of this, I would like to point out Rob Toonen, who has success with his tank. I have a number of threads I can pull over from another site, but I think I wll add just this one (for now...hehe

): DSB revisited . There you will find a post by Biogeek (Rob Toonen) with a picture of his tank. There are people that have had success with DSBs, so it is possible.

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 02:19 PM

I'll sit back abd just read your notes!
I couldn't agree more, even when I was setting my DSB I never figured out how I would get all that was needed, also didn't know how to tell if I did have what was needed or even if it was actually working as planned, not like there was a meter to buy or I had his degree, I still laugh when he says Feed & Feed Heavy!

Curtswearing · 01-21-2004, 02:30 PM

Excellent info all!!!

Phosphorus: Algae’s Best Friend

Did you finish the design for your phosphate pump yet?

LaquitaWilliams · 01-21-2004, 02:30 PM

perhaps what we're all lacking is the eco-aqualizer!!

BoomerD · 01-21-2004, 02:33 PM

I've been following this discussion with some interest. While I certainly don't claim to know or understand all the chemistry behind the different theories, I like the look of the sand bed. I also do not like the look of a bare botton or starboard tank. Too sterile. That being said, I AM interested in trying to make sure that the animals in my care get treated as best as I possibly can, so the idea of a nutrient sink disturbs me.
At this time however, my main concern withadding a DSB to my new 180 is that sand & acrylic make a very scratchy mix. My sump has a place for a small fuge, 16x18x~4" thick, and that's certainly not enough to accomplish everything that a fuge or sand bed was meant to do. So, I read, and watch the threads while trying to make up my mind.

Scooterman · 01-21-2004, 02:52 PM

Old School, some of these guys/gals has had reefs over the ten year mark, even some of them switched, I don't know why would one want to mess with a system that has been working so long or maybe working but not perfect or for whatever reason of switching to such a major commitment.
The phosphate pump is mine and only mine, not sharing that idea!

01-21-2004, 01:40 PM	#76 (permalink)
Hooked Tuxedo Urchin Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 287 View Gallery Karma Komment	"as of right now, i think i understand phosphates as well as i understand black holes....i know they exist...i know they can suck...i know they're everywhere....but if someone asked me "what exactly are phosphates?"....i think my answer would suck.." ROFLMAO __________________ Katrina 90 Gal AGA with 2-250W 10k AB DE MH, 220W VHO, Turboflotor 1000, GEO calcium reactor, Pacific Coast chiller, DIY phosphate reactor and nilsen kalk reactor, sps, clams, zoanthids, rose BTA, ocellaris clown, 2 green mandarins, royal gramma, purple tang, sargassum trigger, flame hawkfish, coral beauty, neon dottyback, purple and blue linckia star, brittlestars, snails, snails, snails

01-21-2004, 01:42 PM	#77 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	Phosphate or Nitrogen Still got PO4 - excellent posts by Curtswearing and mojoreef Also read the thread I linked above your post...good information there as well. LaquitaWilliams, one thing you will see by my posts, is I'm never short on links, whether or not they have anything to do with what we're discussing...lol __________________ ~Nikki~

01-21-2004, 01:43 PM	#78 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	This is also covered here somewhere LOL, Clear as Mud huh! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-21-2004, 01:44 PM	#79 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	oh I see, Nikki is always one step ahead of me! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-21-2004, 01:49 PM	#80 (permalink)
Hooked Tuxedo Urchin Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 287 View Gallery Karma Komment	LaquitaWilliams you are cracking me up But seriously... I'm not sure if I understand "proper sandbed husbandry" Most critters, nassarius snails, starfish and sand cukes, only stir the top layer, but that's good, because you want the lower part to remain undisturbed. Right? So if you add a pistol shrimp that will totally rearrange the sandbed; that's bad and defeats the purpose. Other than providing appropriate critters to stir the top, good water circulation, blasting detritus off of rock and skimming are the remaining parts of good sandbed husbandry. Right? __________________ Katrina 90 Gal AGA with 2-250W 10k AB DE MH, 220W VHO, Turboflotor 1000, GEO calcium reactor, Pacific Coast chiller, DIY phosphate reactor and nilsen kalk reactor, sps, clams, zoanthids, rose BTA, ocellaris clown, 2 green mandarins, royal gramma, purple tang, sargassum trigger, flame hawkfish, coral beauty, neon dottyback, purple and blue linckia star, brittlestars, snails, snails, snails

01-21-2004, 01:58 PM	#81 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	You see Katrina, that is where I had part of my problem, where do you get the proper critters as prescribed by Dr. Ron? According to him, you can't just go out and buy it, almost saying you need to dive deep and scoop up your own. Hey I don't know! Point I was thinking at lunch just now, I love to visit the large aquariums whenever I travel, Never seen a huge tank with a DSb, commercial grade anyways. Could you imagine these 5000g tanks with a huge DSB? Not, all BB! Point to think about, the only sand beds I've seen was in the smaller reef tanks the had, all thin and specialized corals in each, including critters, but these are few and far apart. Ok Nikki will probably beat me on this also LOL! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-21-2004, 02:00 PM	#82 (permalink)
Hooked Tuxedo Urchin Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 287 View Gallery Karma Komment	Good point Scott, and congrats--you beat Nikki __________________ Katrina 90 Gal AGA with 2-250W 10k AB DE MH, 220W VHO, Turboflotor 1000, GEO calcium reactor, Pacific Coast chiller, DIY phosphate reactor and nilsen kalk reactor, sps, clams, zoanthids, rose BTA, ocellaris clown, 2 green mandarins, royal gramma, purple tang, sargassum trigger, flame hawkfish, coral beauty, neon dottyback, purple and blue linckia star, brittlestars, snails, snails, snails

01-21-2004, 02:03 PM	#83 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	Yeaaa! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

01-21-2004, 02:11 PM	#84 (permalink)
LaquitaWilliams Bryozoan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: fresno Posts: 49 View Gallery Karma Komment	nikki, thanks for the links....i read them...they helped a bit..one of the guys was talking about starting a siphon with a micron sock to vacuum/clean the substrate....if i understood right, no sand would be removed with his method, only whatever nastiness is stirred up manually....this way the water would be replaced without having to do a water change and add more n or p with new salt.... seems like it could be promising...but time-consuming....my herbal medication creates a lot of down-time for me.... there was also mention of how fresh new live sand from the store is already packed with phosphates....perhaps there is a way to treat this sand before adding it to our tanks?? __________________ if at first you don't succeed....then skydiving is not for you

01-21-2004, 02:11 PM	#85 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	LOL - well, Scott, I was busy making copies of my notes for you Well, IMO (which isn't much) DSBs aren't what they were originally sold as. If you read back to the quotes Mike posted of Dr. Ron's - there is definite contradiction. In my view they were supposed to be this set-it and forget it type system. Now, after reading, I can't imagine having as many critters as is needed to function to its fullest - again, my view. What about the phosphates? - they will be there - nothing to do about it, but try to minimize the addition of more than necessary. Having said all of this, I would like to point out Rob Toonen, who has success with his tank. I have a number of threads I can pull over from another site, but I think I wll add just this one (for now...hehe ): DSB revisited . There you will find a post by Biogeek (Rob Toonen) with a picture of his tank. There are people that have had success with DSBs, so it is possible. __________________ ~Nikki~

01-21-2004, 02:19 PM	#86 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	I'll sit back abd just read your notes! I couldn't agree more, even when I was setting my DSB I never figured out how I would get all that was needed, also didn't know how to tell if I did have what was needed or even if it was actually working as planned, not like there was a meter to buy or I had his degree, I still laugh when he says Feed & Feed Heavy! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan) Last edited by Scooterman : 01-21-2004 at 02:22 PM.

01-21-2004, 02:30 PM	#87 (permalink)
Curtswearing Golden Moray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,596 View Gallery Karma Komment	Excellent info all!!! Phosphorus: Algae’s Best Friend Did you finish the design for your phosphate pump yet? __________________ In memory of Fluffy, please pause before hitting enter---being nice is free. Click for ReefKeeping FAQ'S Click for Product Reviews Click for Photo ID Gallery http://curtcpapfs.com/downloads/1Curt.jpg

01-21-2004, 02:30 PM	#88 (permalink)
LaquitaWilliams Bryozoan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: fresno Posts: 49 View Gallery Karma Komment	perhaps what we're all lacking is the eco-aqualizer!!

01-21-2004, 02:33 PM	#89 (permalink)
BoomerD Reef Shark Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 5,632 View Gallery Karma Komment	I've been following this discussion with some interest. While I certainly don't claim to know or understand all the chemistry behind the different theories, I like the look of the sand bed. I also do not like the look of a bare botton or starboard tank. Too sterile. That being said, I AM interested in trying to make sure that the animals in my care get treated as best as I possibly can, so the idea of a nutrient sink disturbs me. At this time however, my main concern withadding a DSB to my new 180 is that sand & acrylic make a very scratchy mix. My sump has a place for a small fuge, 16x18x~4" thick, and that's certainly not enough to accomplish everything that a fuge or sand bed was meant to do. So, I read, and watch the threads while trying to make up my mind.

01-21-2004, 02:52 PM	#90 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,184 View Gallery Karma Komment	Old School, some of these guys/gals has had reefs over the ten year mark, even some of them switched, I don't know why would one want to mess with a system that has been working so long or maybe working but not perfect or for whatever reason of switching to such a major commitment. The phosphate pump is mine and only mine, not sharing that idea! __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)