DSB...Let's Discuss!

[mojoreef]

Ok I am pooped and that took to long. RC thier is a bit of onfo for you, I can dig up more later and/or you could just use the keywords and do some searches off the articles
RC Dr. Ron has made many statements. Just in the statement you quoted is hilarious. He makes the statement with no background testing, how does he know thier is any metals in the sand???. and even if so, salt is good compared to foods, additives, kalk and so on. Allow me to post a few more quotes, hehe
on a 200 gallon tank

Having a 60 gal remote DSB may work, some folks can pull it off. I suspect, however, in most cases these turn into nutrient-sinks and will be problems in the long run.

It really matters because that is why a sand bed works. The material once captured by the animals in the bed really never leaves the bed. It cycles over and over in the bed from one organism in close proximity to another until the energy in it is used up and the material in it gets exported. The decoupling of these reactions allows the material to be liberated into the tank water where it will be food for, primarily cyanonbacteria, but other microalgae as well.

As an example of the flow necessary to move materials out of an "Acropora" thicket in nature, the flow across such a region has been measured, In the volume of a 100 gallon tank, that amount of flow would be on the order of 50,000 gallons per hour....

heres a good one on your will last foreve quote

The added feeding goes to maintain the DSB that would have been adequate if it were in the main tank. However, in this case, you have added more nutrients to the system and as the DSB is a finite system it becomes saturated and will not be able to export them adequately.

when asked what kind of tank a dsb would support

There is no magic number per gallon, but the actual number of fish per unit volume is pretty low. Probably on the order of no more than 3 or 4 relatively small fish per hundred gallon volume. Similarly coral diversity and abundance is pretty low.

but he does let us know its simple

If the hobbyist can't maintain a DSB in the main tank, which is about as easy as falling off a log, they shouldn't really try to maintain one in remote tank, but should probably try to use some other sort of filtration.

but then 4 days later

It is interesting that people tend to think that all of this is supposed to be "simple" and "easy" to do. Most folks don't realize that a coral reef ecosystem is the most complicated ecosystem on the planet, and that the sand bed component to it is also complicated. The level of complication is here is orders of magnitude more than is found in any manmade object, structure, or construction.

oh here is one on the skimmers

Yes, indeed. Then I did the research to show I was incorrect about skimming - A point I noted in presentations as well as in print.

oooppps

Personally, if I was culturing corals for reproduction I wouldn't use a sand bed.

When asked how many detroviors to add to a DSB ron says

The maximum amount of the most you can maintain.

but then 2 days later in the same thread

In my advice I generally tell people to add as little as possible, as that is the cost effective way.

Heres a little help for folks on what and how many kinds of critters you need

A DSB needs around 200 species to function properly and most land-locked reefers can't get the diversity high enough with just the detritivore kits and seeding with "live sand". The "Southdown and Seed" method is quite common and I doubt many of these tanks ever reach the diversity level required to function as envisioned. A DSB can be handicapped right out of the gate by lack of diversity.

anyway their is some info from the experts on the other side of the fence.
hope it helps

MIke

[NaH2O]

I'll be back for more.........just need to get some reading done. Thanks, Mike, for taking the time to post all of that.

[Craig Manoukian]

OK, It's late so this could be dangerous!

I set up my tank in May 2002, 80 gallon reef. Put about 3 inches of coral gravel and crushed coral mix in, due to ignorance, and then LR to cycle. After a couple of days of reading, decided the coral gravel was a bad idea even though I didn't really know why as I had almost zero SW experience.

Took out the LR and removed all but about an inch of the CG & CC substrate. Got a nylon screen, screen door material, and covered the substrate. Added 3 " of Aragonite sand and let the tank cycle with 100 lbs of LR. What I have is a bastardized plenum and DSB combination.

I have two Tangs, a Cardinal, a Clown, two Chromis, and two Wrasses for a total of 8 fish totaling about 26". I have about 30 Blue and Scarlet Hermits, 30 snails, and over 50 limpets. I have soft corals and polyps.

My sand bed is brimming with life and there is a very healthy stream of free nitrogen bubbles that race through the water column to the surface. There are amphipods, copepods, spaghetti, peanut, and blood worms. I have a slight amount of cyano bacteria that is present in areas within the substrate and the cyano occassionally occupies the surface. I siphon off the surface cyano, but otherwise leave the sand alone.

The Clown and Yellow Wrasse do a fair amount of tailing and move a good amount of sand in certain areas. There are probably a few bristle worms working the sand that I am unaware of.

I run a protein skimmer and am in the process of hooking up a sump/refugium with several kinds of macro algae. I will start with Chaetomorpha, and Feather Caulerpa. My calcium levels are very good and my coraline algae production is off the chart.

I change about 5 gallons of water weekly using Marine Environment two part salt. I clean the front and side glass along with the the filter pads and skimmer cups. Monthly I will use a Turkey Baster to blow the detritus off the LR.

The DSB/Plenum is working very much as I hoped and time will tell just how long it will function properly. So far so good, eh?



I hope I was forthcoming with all of the information you were looking for!

[Scooterman]

I'm glad we aren't in one big conference room discussing all this, I think by now we would be blabbing everything in the world with so much information interpreted 100 different ways, why is it so hard for two people to read one line and come up with the same conclusion? The amazing thing is for the most part, we all have thriving Reefs, regardless of substrate or not. Mike, you must be huring by now LOL, good info man thanks.

[NaH2O]

Thanks, Craig. It's interesting to me all of the different ways people set up their systems. I wonder what you thought of Mike's comment, as it appears that's what you are doing when you syphon the cyano out?

The concept now being purposed by the PHd's is to allow the cyano/algae portion of the phosphate cycle to occur and then to syphon the cyano and so on out, this way you are breaking the cycle and actually exporting something.

I don't know...my brain is tired right now....do I ever make sense? (someone please tell me, yes)

[Scooterman]

Craig posted that 2 AM, ... think he's got it bad.......

[NaH2O]

Scott.....he would be the one paying attention during the conference room discussion you had mentioned....one of us would be drawing doodles, one of us would be heading up the discussion, one of us would be sleeping (drool included), and one of us would be staring out the window.

[Scooterman]

I'm a good Doodler!

[mojoreef]

Man I must have had to much cofie yesterday, I cant believe I posted a that, lol. Anyway folks I really dont condem the use of DSB's. who am to say what you want to have in your tank. The problem I have with them is just how they are sold. I just think its improtant for folks to know the goods and the bads, that it. A DSB will NOT crash your tank, thats not the way it works. It will simply cease to function as a filter.

Craig it sounds like you are running a dsb exactly they way it was meant to be run. I wish you all the sucess you can have.

Mike

[Craig Manoukian]

Originally posted by mojoreef
Craig it sounds like you are running a dsb exactly they way it was meant to be run. I wish you all the sucess you can have.

Mike

Don't give me any credit. It was completely a case of flying by the seat of my pantaloons. Dumb luck I tell you!

When I siphon, I will use a credit card to fan and loosen the cyano from the sand, and then use a smaller diameter siphon to remove as little sand as possible. This is no different in terms of expoert than trimming your macro algae.

[Curtswearing]

It could be worse. I was still on the phone with a client at 2:00 a.m.

[Scooterman]

Oh yea, forgot Curts would be the one holding on the phone. I'd be making paper airplanes, with a camcorder, to catch what I miss. Mike would start off in deep theories of the new generation Plenums with a drain & somehow have it broken down to the beginning of time as Mike would see it...Craig would be assembling his Newly modified skimmer, redirection water & air micro bubbles into the intake to makes it even more efficient...

[Curtswearing]

LOL

[NaH2O]

I would be intently listening to Mike's deep theories nodding in agreement, and taking indepth notes, while Scott is looking over my shoulder. I keep trying to block his view of my papers, but to no avail....."don't worry Scott, I'll make copies for you".

[Scooterman]

Thanks Nikki, I'll need the help!