?Old Tank Syndrome?

[Warnberg]

Here are some interesting articals.... DSB and SSB reefers out there

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature

[Woodstock]

Thanks Warnberg! Very interesting read...

Plenum vs non-plenum (DSB & SSB) PART 1 testing recap:

Putting aside all the rhetoric and opinions, our experiment shows that the presence of a plenum has no measurable benefits over simply depositing the same sediments directly on the bottom of the aquarium (at least over the few months that we tested).

In terms of processing nitrogenous wastes from aquarium inhabitants (specifically ammonia, nitrite and nitrate), none of the experimental treatments (plenum vs. sandbed; deep vs shallow; coarse vs. fine) appeared to have a significant advantage.

The significant differences among the experimental treatments were almost entirely in the buffering capacity of the sediments rather than the biological breakdown of nitrogenous waste products. The largest differences among the treatments were seen in the final concentration of phosphate: coarse sediment treatments had roughly 17 times the final concentration of aquaria in fine particle treatments!

Plenum vs non-plenum (DSB & SSB) PART 2

Basically, part 2, was using live animals/rock instead of simply dosing ammonia. Nevertheless, the results were the same as part one with a slight difference in alkalinty levels between the plenum & non-plenum.

[ScottT1980]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

Wouldn't skimming or using Macro-algea do the same thing ? I know there was an article either in advancedaquarist or reefkeeping which mentioned that because mangroves are very slow in growth there not as effective as caulerpa or other macros in nutrient export. Also isn't the buildup of nutrients what could be toxic ?

I suppose I should have clarified. I think the issue of PO4 and nitrogenous wastes are the continual focus of the hobbiest. Why? Because they are tangable and we see causitive effects almost immediatly. We have various means to control nitrogen input, either through skimming, water changes, macro, etc... To me, controlling these is relatively easy and I tihnk we have developed many efficient mechanisms to control it.

As for PO4, well, it is a bit more tricky. However, I still think (and again, this is based more on gut feeling than anything else) that we place too much emphasis on its importance in our aquariums. From an aesthetics standpoint, it is a miserable little molecule that can make algae problems seem insermountable. However, is it really the cause of OTS. Perhaps, but I am not sold (although I am always up for a good sales pitch).

So my thought remains the more "hidden" elementals and chemicals that we find in trace (and not so trace) amounts in our synthetic salt water mixes. Again, I am basing this on absolutly nothing but a hunch. I think these things accumulate in our tanks and over time, might wreak havoc and cause OTS. I would love to see a comparison between tanks using only synthetic salt and tanks using natural sea water and correlate it to age. Of course, there are so many variables in this hobby, it is difficult to pinpoint 1 magic contributor to OTS.

So, back to the mangroves, I was more thinking along the lines of these elements (Cu, Cl, etc...) and was wondering if something in their environment acted as a sink for them, or if the mangroves themselves could bind them and make them "biologically inactive."

If that makes any sense...

Take er easy
Scott T.

[Woodstock]

Good point Scott.... but.... Wouldn't carbon adsorb these 'hidden" element(als)? If that is the case, then those reefers that use carbon intensively, their aquariums would not experience OTS?

[Cougra]

Although Carbon acn remove a lot ofchemical impurities, it gets exhausted very quickly and can start to leach the elements that it absorbed back into the tank once it becomes saturated. There are other resins around that work more effectively and last longer then carbon but they seem to be more specialized. Polyfilters are good to run occassionally as well since they bind a vast amount of chemicals as well as organics.

There are many different types of chemical filtration but emphasis is only put on a couple media's because the others aren't understood. As we all know Phosphate absorbers have come to the forefront in our tanks and carbon isn't as effective as we once thought it was. But what other types of chemical filtration (besides water changes) do people use in the tank?

Do you classify collecting marco algae as a form of chemical filtration? In some why's it is because it uses some chemical elements but in other ways it's not since it also releases toxins back into the water as well.

We've made huge advances in biological filtration and mechanical filtration but we still have a lot to learn about chemical filtration and it's this lack of understanding that I think has a lot to do with old tank syndrome.

There is a lot of research being done on the chemical processes that occur in the tank, and a lot more is being understood each day, but that understanding hasn't really translated into many methods of filtration.

[Woodstock]

Personally, I only use Polyfilters now. I have a gallon of unused Black Diamond Carbon in my "fish trunk" gathering dust.

Macro algae, IMO, are excellent exports of nasties. I am unsure of exactly what chemicals they absorb as they grow but my thinking is they are substantial! Maybe that is just me being optomistic

[forestal]

I was there for Julian's lecture at IMAC and one thought seemed the strongest to me, that the corals (especially if they are from different areas/habitats) through constant allelopathy become sensitized similar to antibodies in our system...so some species of coral become impossible to keep and the general health of everything becomes inhibited and slows the growth, so the remaining corals don't thrive, reaching a homeastasis of growth and inhibition....(not my theory-but makes a lot of sense)

btw, i am still less than 2 years in the hobby, so no experience even close to this myself

[Woodstock]

Very interesting. I am looking forward to Julian's 'paper' on OTS.

[Mad Mike]

Originally Posted by forestal

I was there for Julian's lecture at IMAC and one thought seemed the strongest to me, that the corals (especially if they are from different areas/habitats) through constant allelopathy become sensitized similar to antibodies in our system.

I don't know if I agree with this. I would think that constant exposure to something would have the oppsite effect for exaple a flu shot. Even corals from the same area of the globe are competing for space and having little chemical wars in our tanks every night some corals win, some loose.

OTS sounds to me more like a system breakdown then anything. I think were closer with the ideas of biological exhaustion and toxic buildup on rocks and sand beds.

Really good slide show on cause and effect of ammonia Interesting read what I found most interesting was the part about nitrifiing bacteria. It really sounds like a cycling breakdown.

[Woodstock]

Good point Mike.

[forestal]

could be.... hopefully some day we (meaning they hehe) will figure it out and we can know how to prevent it...I hope some day to have my tank up long enough to worry about it

[Woodstock]

I would like to fast forward into reef keeping relm about 10-15 years... I can not imagine what we will have learned by then~~

[Brucey]

Originally Posted by Warnberg

New Tank Syndrom, Old Tank Syndrom... what next?

NTS, OTS . . . . Surely you;ve heard of BNTS and NOTS

Barely New Tank Syndrome and Nearly Old Tank Syndrome

Brucey

[Mad Mike]

Originally Posted by Brucey

NTS, OTS . . . . Surely you;ve heard of BNTS and NOTS

Barely New Tank Syndrome and Nearly Old Tank Syndrome

Brucey

[Warnberg]

Like I said what next? RTS... oh no I have RTS.... reef tank syndrome.... symptoms include, cronic low balance in checking account, credit cards maxed out and unsightly high electric bills..... cures include, but are not limited to... finding a second job, hitting the lotto and putting the kids to work.....