Phosphate or nitrogen - Page 2

ScottT1980 · 12-20-2003, 01:45 PM

Just to keep you honest Alberto

Quote:

amino acids that compose DNA and RNA.

Did you mean nucleic acids? Interestingly, phosphate esters are also in the structure of DNA, but that is getting a bit too intensive for the sake of this discussion. No trying to be a smart a**, just wanted to clarify (honestly, I don't remember if there are any amino acids in the structure of RNA or DNA).

Am I missing something else here... Are high levels of phosphates toxic to our fish or inverts? If the primary concern is their ability to promote massive amounts of algae growth, then I am not "in the dark" and I would say that nitrogen is still my primary concern but if in fact I have missed something, then I might change my mind.

Also, I know Nikki mentioned it in another thread but does anyone know anything about xenia's absorption of PO4 and perhaps the use of xenia vs. macro?

Take er easy
Scott T.

Cosmic · 12-20-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Am I missing something else here... Are high levels of phosphates toxic to our fish or inverts? If the primary concern is their ability to promote massive amounts of algae growth, then I am not "in the dark" and I would say that nitrogen is still my primary concern but if in fact I have missed something, then I might change my mind.

Based on this comment, you are overlooking the fact that high levels of PO4 will inhibit calcification in corals and other Ca-consuming organisms (Coralline for example).
So indirectly, yes, PO4 can be detrimental to corals, but not necessarily fish or many inverts.

-HTH-
Cos

Boomer · 12-20-2003, 03:41 PM

Nice piece Alberto

As one can see they are both limiting factors. Advanced seaweed biology books usually have a whole chapter on each. As far as concentration Carbon by far out weighs Phosphorus. The ratio of C in seaweeds, to that in water is 1.0 x 10-4 and P is 2.4 x 10-5. They are both part of Liebig's Law of Minimum, as are other nutrients. That avg ratio of C:P in seaweeds is almost 100 : 1 (97.86 : 1)or 274, 000 ug / g-l C and 2,800 ug /g-l P

mojoreef · 12-20-2003, 03:51 PM

Wow this has turned into a neat conversation, which is really neat concidering I completely blew the question I was try to ask, lol

MIke

ScottT1980 · 12-20-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Based on this comment, you are overlooking the fact that high levels of PO4 will inhibit calcification in corals and other Ca-consuming organisms (Coralline for example).

Yes, we also have to consider (thanks Cosmic for reminding me)that but I guess my ultimate concern regards toxicity and nitrogenous wastes are toxic and can immediatly impact our system's inhabitants whereas PO4 can only hinder their growth.

Quote:

Advanced seaweed biology books usually have a whole chapter on each. As far as concentration Carbon by far out weighs Phosphorus. The ratio of C in seaweeds, to that in water is 1.0 x 10-4 and P is 2.4 x 10-5. They are both part of Liebig's Law of Minimum, as are other nutrients. That avg ratio of C:P in seaweeds is almost 100 : 1 (97.86 : 1)or 274, 000 ug / g-l C and 2,800 ug /g-l P

I could be wrong but I think this ratio holds for most terrestrial plants as well. What is amazing is how very little phosphate can greatly increase growth rates (or at least from what I have read). And then there was the whole fiasco with phosphates and the Great Lakes...

Take er easy
Scott T.

mojoreef · 12-20-2003, 07:16 PM

I gues it would have to do with which form of phosphorus we are talking about, DPI,PPI,DPO,DPO. Another thing to look at when it come to phosphates is the fact bacteria actually produce it

Boomer · 12-20-2003, 08:47 PM

Mojo

You have those letters out of order

Must be your time for a bad day, mine has been all week, so you have allot of catching up to due

DPI,PPI,DPO,DPO

DIP, PIP, DOP, POP.

DOP is the worst and casues most of the problems in the end and you can't measure it, unless you have the test kit I have

Most kits measure DIP = PO4 only. All that stuff above is called Total P.

mojoreef · 12-20-2003, 09:22 PM

You know that is the way we always used to say them, but I know from the chemical terminaolgy you are correct, thanks, lol.

Craig Manoukian · 12-21-2003, 03:46 AM

Great stuff everyone! Thanks!

dgasmd · 12-21-2003, 08:04 AM

Yes, you were right. It is nucleic acids. Forgive my dislexia. I guess the small strokes I get daily must have been kicking in.

David · 01-18-2004, 05:01 AM

Heh, as far as I'm concerned, phosphates and nitrogen aren't a problem... They're an adventure.

Maxx · 07-12-2004, 11:58 PM

Wow, cant believe I've just found this thread....
Thanks David for resurrecting it and bringing it (inadvertantly) to my attention!
Mike, Boomer, Dgasmd, Scott1980, Cosmic et al...
So I know that I need to whatch out for both phosphates and nitrogen compounds, but is one really more dangerous than another? I know based on alot of reading about phosphates lately that its probably the toughest to control, but it can be managed.
I know Mike has a Deltec reactor for Rowa media, but do you feel the smaller phosban reactor is worth using on smaller systems? How would you employ PO4 removing media in a smaller BB set up for SPS? Would the PO4 reactor be all that was used or what?
Nick

Brucey · 07-13-2004, 06:17 AM

Controlling Phosphates to stop algae growth. I have it on my plate coral at the moment. My fault. Let a water change slip 2 months and that's the result. Doh
Brucey

Curtswearing · 07-13-2004, 10:56 AM

Nitrogen is limiting in freshwater IMO.

Phosphates are limiting in saltwater IMO.

mojoreef · 07-13-2004, 10:58 AM

Yea this is an old thread I started way back when we were going over various filtration systems. I did it to get a feel for how folks percieved various problems with in thier tanks and to see where thier priorities were.
In the wild nitrogen is everywhere and is quite common, plus thier is a ton of things that can deal with it and eliminate it. Also nitrates can be made from scratch in our tanks so its not truely limiting. WIth the ammount of cyanos we have in oour tanks its be manufactured all the time.
In regards to Phosphates they are limited by how much we truely put into our tanks. So when you compare the two in our reef tanks P is truely limiting.

Nick using a PO4 reactor with phosban or rowa is just one part of the overall battle against total P. It will suck up any available PO4 that passes through it, so yes it could play a part in the over all game.

Mike

View Poll Results: which is of the most concern in keeping a reef
Controling elements of the nitrogen is my foremost concern	13	34.21%
elements of phosphates are my foremost concern	15	39.47%
nitrogen is the limiting factor in life	3	7.89%
phosphate is the limiting factor in life	7	18.42%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

12-20-2003, 03:41 PM	#18 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,072 View Gallery Karma Komment	Nice piece Alberto As one can see they are both limiting factors. Advanced seaweed biology books usually have a whole chapter on each. As far as concentration Carbon by far out weighs Phosphorus. The ratio of C in seaweeds, to that in water is 1.0 x 10-4 and P is 2.4 x 10-5. They are both part of Liebig's Law of Minimum, as are other nutrients. That avg ratio of C:P in seaweeds is almost 100 : 1 (97.86 : 1)or 274, 000 ug / g-l C and 2,800 ug /g-l P __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-20-2003, 03:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Wow this has turned into a neat conversation, which is really neat concidering I completely blew the question I was try to ask, lol MIke __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-20-2003, 07:16 PM	#21 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	I gues it would have to do with which form of phosphorus we are talking about, DPI,PPI,DPO,DPO. Another thing to look at when it come to phosphates is the fact bacteria actually produce it __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-20-2003, 08:47 PM	#22 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,072 View Gallery Karma Komment	Mojo You have those letters out of order Must be your time for a bad day, mine has been all week, so you have allot of catching up to due DPI,PPI,DPO,DPO DIP, PIP, DOP, POP. DOP is the worst and casues most of the problems in the end and you can't measure it, unless you have the test kit I have Most kits measure DIP = PO4 only. All that stuff above is called Total P. __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-20-2003, 09:22 PM	#23 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	You know that is the way we always used to say them, but I know from the chemical terminaolgy you are correct, thanks, lol. __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-21-2003, 03:46 AM	#24 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 17,913 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Great stuff everyone! Thanks! __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

12-21-2003, 08:04 AM	#25 (permalink)
dgasmd Scopas Tang Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Royal Palm Beach, FL Posts: 466 View Gallery Karma Komment	Yes, you were right. It is nucleic acids. Forgive my dislexia. I guess the small strokes I get daily must have been kicking in. __________________ Water is what keeps a ship floating, but it is also what sinks it.

01-18-2004, 05:01 AM	#26 (permalink)
David Midas Blenny Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Brisbane, AU Posts: 118 View Gallery Karma Komment	Heh, as far as I'm concerned, phosphates and nitrogen aren't a problem... They're an adventure.

07-12-2004, 11:58 PM	#27 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,079 View Gallery Karma Komment	Wow, cant believe I've just found this thread.... Thanks David for resurrecting it and bringing it (inadvertantly) to my attention! Mike, Boomer, Dgasmd, Scott1980, Cosmic et al... So I know that I need to whatch out for both phosphates and nitrogen compounds, but is one really more dangerous than another? I know based on alot of reading about phosphates lately that its probably the toughest to control, but it can be managed. I know Mike has a Deltec reactor for Rowa media, but do you feel the smaller phosban reactor is worth using on smaller systems? How would you employ PO4 removing media in a smaller BB set up for SPS? Would the PO4 reactor be all that was used or what? Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

07-13-2004, 06:17 AM	#28 (permalink)
Brucey Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Reading, England Posts: 1,292 View Gallery Karma Komment	Controlling Phosphates to stop algae growth. I have it on my plate coral at the moment. My fault. Let a water change slip 2 months and that's the result. Doh Brucey __________________ 160UK Gallon. (192US Gallon). 400Lbs LR. Aquamedic Turboflotor 5000 Shorty skimmer. Arcadia 3Series pendant (3x250W 14,000'K MH & 2x58W 60" actinic) (DIY cooling fan). Tunze 7095 Multicontroller & 2xTunze 6100 Streams. Redsea 100 Aquazone Plus ozonizer and redox computer. Aquamedic Ocean Runner 6500 return. TMC Vectron 30W UV sterilizer. Aquamedic Aquaniveau auto top up system through Deltec 500 kalk stirrer. PurityOnTap RO/DI. Deltec FR509 (ROWAPhos). Aquamedic PH computer controlling KNOP HD Calcium Reactor. Setup Nov 2002 See my tank here http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...&threadid=4486

07-13-2004, 10:56 AM	#29 (permalink)
Curtswearing Golden Moray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,596 View Gallery Karma Komment	Nitrogen is limiting in freshwater IMO. Phosphates are limiting in saltwater IMO. __________________ In memory of Fluffy, please pause before hitting enter---being nice is free. Click for ReefKeeping FAQ'S Click for Product Reviews Click for Photo ID Gallery http://curtcpapfs.com/downloads/1Curt.jpg

07-13-2004, 10:58 AM	#30 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Yea this is an old thread I started way back when we were going over various filtration systems. I did it to get a feel for how folks percieved various problems with in thier tanks and to see where thier priorities were. In the wild nitrogen is everywhere and is quite common, plus thier is a ton of things that can deal with it and eliminate it. Also nitrates can be made from scratch in our tanks so its not truely limiting. WIth the ammount of cyanos we have in oour tanks its be manufactured all the time. In regards to Phosphates they are limited by how much we truely put into our tanks. So when you compare the two in our reef tanks P is truely limiting. Nick using a PO4 reactor with phosban or rowa is just one part of the overall battle against total P. It will suck up any available PO4 that passes through it, so yes it could play a part in the over all game. Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

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