Wet Foam vs. Dry Foam - Page 4

tankgirl · 12-09-2003, 06:04 PM

Oh. Okay.

Boomer · 12-09-2003, 06:29 PM

Things to read on the physics and chemistry of foam fractionation.

Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Work by P.R.Escobal ( an old friend of mine and a former NASA Aeronatuical Enigneer, worked on the Apollo Spoace Program and at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory

Two chapters on skimmers, both are very deep technically. Get the Calc book out

Seawater Systems : The Captive Enviroment by Steven Spotte

Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology,by Steven Spotte

Ion Flotation by F. Sebba

Mike

The HSA protein skimmer has once again moved Marine Technical Concepts

But Leo does make really good stuff

Jerel

We pretty much agree on things

Some people think we are evil-twins

Boomer · 12-09-2003, 06:31 PM

It has to do with ORP, our next discussion!

Lets not stir up a hornets nest, it is winter, so they are sleeping

mojoreef · 12-09-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

But Leo does make really good stuff

Great stuff actually. I had a long conversation with leo about a calcium reactor, took an hour to get a no. He is a smart puppy.

Mike

tankgirl · 12-09-2003, 08:41 PM

Hey, Boomey! Good to see you here!
I've been saving a link for when I saw you;
http://home.att.net/~gallgosp/chemistr.htm
looks like your kind of place!
p.s. there's some ORP stuff in there, too!

Boomer · 12-10-2003, 11:48 AM

TG

That is a great link, thanks

Mike

I proposed new idea/theory to Leo for his O2 reactors operation, which he used in his advanced model

Yes, Leo makes really great stuff. I always recommend it. You should see the toys he has in his basement that he invented for reef tanks, that never got brought to the market. You would amazed.

Scooterman · 12-10-2003, 11:52 AM

Guys & what goes on in their basements, sometime makes you wonder.

mojoreef · 12-10-2003, 04:00 PM

LOL I can bet I ran one of thier reactors for about 5 years, it was always a solid unit. I modified it once and called Leo to ask him about it and he wouldnt talk to me, lol. You got to love a guy that is passionate about his products.

Mike

Boomer · 12-10-2003, 05:30 PM

The one I did for him did not use "bio-bail" but an industrial spray nozzle, that atomized the water, so no need for media. Tower looked like a big fog column, where the fog was just tumbling around. I had Bill Giest of Lumar Tech. custom build a 3 footer for me 6 " in dia. , ran it at 20 psi..........scary, as O² increases with increasing pressure.

OK, brake time over back to the basement....had a minor flood the other day.

Car also BO, not a good week for Boomy............

tankgirl · 12-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Wow! I got some additional excellent explanations over at the ReefTank! One of the frustrating but probably good things about me is tenacity - I just won't quit until I really understand the reasons for something, can't simply take someone's word for it - gotta know why.

More About WHY Wet Foam is Better Than Dry Foam:

Spanky:
This is without a doubt the hardest thing I've even had to explain - without using lots of hand motions! LOL

Yes dark, dry skimmate is more concentrated that wet skimmate. Because it takes longer for it to get concentrated?? Ok that didn't work, let me try that again.

Let's say you pass your water through the skimmer once every hour. It takes 12 hours to make dark concentrated skimmate, so your tank water has passed through the skimmer 12 times to remove that.
Then if you remove wet skimmate at the same volume you're removing more with each pass through the skimmer even though it's less concentrated.

Nope not there yet!

OK OK try this.

Even though you're removing wet skimmate and it's less concentrated than the dry, you're removing more things faster.

I give up!! can't do it. LOL ask Mike.

It's dark because it's organics and bacteria.
-----------------------------------
galleon:
Wet = Faster Removal of crap = better
-------------------------------------
wizardgus:
Let me try, I'll botch it up a bit, but you can fix it for me.

IIRC, the way a skimmer basically works is certain things are attracted to and adhere to the surface tension of the bubbles/foam. Not all things we want to remove from the water are equally attracted or as well attached. With a dry foam, those things less attracted are able to basically fall off before reaching the skimmer cup.
-------------------------------------
mad_coder:
there's probably some loss of crud the longer it has to wait around to concentrate, which means if you want to remove the most crud, remove wet foam.
-----------------------------------------

Those guys are Good!!! Kudos to them!

mojoreef · 12-11-2003, 04:50 PM

Oh yea dump it on me...thats just like him, lol

Mike

tankgirl · 12-11-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Oh yea dump it on me...thats just like him, lol

And, I did!!!

Scooterman · 12-12-2003, 08:59 AM

Thanks for all that information TG, can you summarize what you've found from all your research, I'd like to see your opinion on this matter?

Craig Manoukian · 12-12-2003, 10:09 AM

Ditto on the request TG. There seems to be some differing opinions and I'd like to confirm whather that is due to better and more recent information. Haven't had time to study, er must be lazy, eh?

tankgirl · 12-12-2003, 10:55 AM

Okay-
Bottom Line is: it depends on your tank and goals.

Just what Mike (& you, Craigy) said:
no two tanks are alike, skimming requirements will be different

If you run an SPS tank and want the cleanest possible tank water -
Wet Is Better.

If you run a zo (or softie) tank or a nano:
Dry Could Be Better.

Your salinity can take a hit - but we should all be checking that often, anyway. Ditto for additives.

And, just a disclaimer: if your skimmer overflows (running wet foam), it can poison your tank by dumping all that concentrated gunk in your tank.

12-09-2003, 06:29 PM	#47 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,194 View Gallery Karma Komment	Things to read on the physics and chemistry of foam fractionation. Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Work by P.R.Escobal ( an old friend of mine and a former NASA Aeronatuical Enigneer, worked on the Apollo Spoace Program and at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Two chapters on skimmers, both are very deep technically. Get the Calc book out Seawater Systems : The Captive Enviroment by Steven Spotte Captive Seawater Fishes: Science and Technology,by Steven Spotte Ion Flotation by F. Sebba Mike The HSA protein skimmer has once again moved Marine Technical Concepts But Leo does make really good stuff Jerel We pretty much agree on things Some people think we are evil-twins __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-09-2003, 06:31 PM	#48 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,194 View Gallery Karma Komment	It has to do with ORP, our next discussion! Lets not stir up a hornets nest, it is winter, so they are sleeping __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-10-2003, 11:48 AM	#51 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,194 View Gallery Karma Komment	TG That is a great link, thanks Mike I proposed new idea/theory to Leo for his O2 reactors operation, which he used in his advanced model Yes, Leo makes really great stuff. I always recommend it. You should see the toys he has in his basement that he invented for reef tanks, that never got brought to the market. You would amazed. __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-10-2003, 11:52 AM	#52 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,231 View Gallery Karma Komment	Guys & what goes on in their basements, sometime makes you wonder. __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

12-10-2003, 04:00 PM	#53 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	LOL I can bet I ran one of thier reactors for about 5 years, it was always a solid unit. I modified it once and called Leo to ask him about it and he wouldnt talk to me, lol. You got to love a guy that is passionate about his products. Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-09-2003, 06:04 PM	#46 (permalink)
tankgirl Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: So. Ca Posts: 1,476 View Gallery Karma Komment	Oh. Okay.

12-09-2003, 08:41 PM	#50 (permalink)
tankgirl Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: So. Ca Posts: 1,476 View Gallery Karma Komment	Hey, Boomey! Good to see you here! I've been saving a link for when I saw you; http://home.att.net/~gallgosp/chemistr.htm looks like your kind of place! p.s. there's some ORP stuff in there, too!

12-10-2003, 05:30 PM	#54 (permalink)
Boomer Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,194 View Gallery Karma Komment	The one I did for him did not use "bio-bail" but an industrial spray nozzle, that atomized the water, so no need for media. Tower looked like a big fog column, where the fog was just tumbling around. I had Bill Giest of Lumar Tech. custom build a 3 footer for me 6 " in dia. , ran it at 20 psi..........scary, as O² increases with increasing pressure. OK, brake time over back to the basement....had a minor flood the other day. Car also BO, not a good week for Boomy............ __________________ Boomer Want to Talk Chemistry ! The Reef Chemistry Forum Want to See More ! The Coral Realm If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

12-11-2003, 02:55 PM	#55 (permalink)
tankgirl Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: So. Ca Posts: 1,476 View Gallery Karma Komment	Wow! I got some additional excellent explanations over at the ReefTank! One of the frustrating but probably good things about me is tenacity - I just won't quit until I really understand the reasons for something, can't simply take someone's word for it - gotta know why. More About WHY Wet Foam is Better Than Dry Foam: Spanky: This is without a doubt the hardest thing I've even had to explain - without using lots of hand motions! LOL Yes dark, dry skimmate is more concentrated that wet skimmate. Because it takes longer for it to get concentrated?? Ok that didn't work, let me try that again. Let's say you pass your water through the skimmer once every hour. It takes 12 hours to make dark concentrated skimmate, so your tank water has passed through the skimmer 12 times to remove that. Then if you remove wet skimmate at the same volume you're removing more with each pass through the skimmer even though it's less concentrated. Nope not there yet! OK OK try this. Even though you're removing wet skimmate and it's less concentrated than the dry, you're removing more things faster. I give up!! can't do it. LOL ask Mike. It's dark because it's organics and bacteria. ----------------------------------- galleon: Wet = Faster Removal of crap = better ------------------------------------- wizardgus: Let me try, I'll botch it up a bit, but you can fix it for me. IIRC, the way a skimmer basically works is certain things are attracted to and adhere to the surface tension of the bubbles/foam. Not all things we want to remove from the water are equally attracted or as well attached. With a dry foam, those things less attracted are able to basically fall off before reaching the skimmer cup. ------------------------------------- mad_coder: there's probably some loss of crud the longer it has to wait around to concentrate, which means if you want to remove the most crud, remove wet foam. ----------------------------------------- Those guys are Good!!! Kudos to them!

12-11-2003, 04:50 PM	#56 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Oh yea dump it on me...thats just like him, lol Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-12-2003, 08:59 AM	#58 (permalink)
Scooterman Elegance coral Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 1,231 View Gallery Karma Komment	Thanks for all that information TG, can you summarize what you've found from all your research, I'd like to see your opinion on this matter? __________________ Scott Ardoin (Ard-Dwan)

12-12-2003, 10:09 AM	#59 (permalink)
Craig Manoukian Regular Guy Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Marina Del Ray, CA Posts: 18,343 View Gallery Karma Komment Add yours!	Ditto on the request TG. There seems to be some differing opinions and I'd like to confirm whather that is due to better and more recent information. Haven't had time to study, er must be lazy, eh? __________________ Currently tankless. 20 Gallon mini reef with mated pair of Maroon Clowns given to Rougiem! 80 gallon reef given to Rougiem/Wooster HS.

12-12-2003, 10:55 AM	#60 (permalink)
tankgirl Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: So. Ca Posts: 1,476 View Gallery Karma Komment	Okay- Bottom Line is: it depends on your tank and goals. Just what Mike (& you, Craigy) said: no two tanks are alike, skimming requirements will be different If you run an SPS tank and want the cleanest possible tank water - Wet Is Better. If you run a zo (or softie) tank or a nano: Dry Could Be Better. Your salinity can take a hit - but we should all be checking that often, anyway. Ditto for additives. And, just a disclaimer: if your skimmer overflows (running wet foam), it can poison your tank by dumping all that concentrated gunk in your tank.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)