Jaubert Plenum - Page 9

Pro_builder · 12-14-2003, 11:59 AM

oh boy this is a deep subject. I will tag along to get all the info I can.
Thanks for posting

mojoreef · 12-14-2003, 04:05 PM

Hey Cos. Your idea on how to clean the plenum zone, caught my attention the first time you came up with it, It has some merit for sure, so lets move in that direction for a moment.
lets look at exactly what is in the plenum zone water. Thier should be particulate dust from the zone above (covered in baceria) thier should be some solids of detritus also. But I believe the majority of the water will be saturated with Nitrates, sulfides, and phosphates. Elements will also be thier such as calcium, but I would assume with that much phosphate present it would be in the form of calcium phosphate. Removing the particulate matter is a for sure, but I think it could be a mistake leaving this water in place. Whatcha think???

MIke

NaH2O · 12-14-2003, 04:17 PM

Mike, has the water located in the plenum zone ever been tested by anyone? It would be interesting to see what is exactly in there.

RogueCorps · 12-14-2003, 05:15 PM

To go to an extreme, how about building a plenum system with a funnelled base and a couple of valves at the bottom so that solids would collect in a base container. The valves could be closed and container removed and only the volume of the container of aerobic environment would flow through the plenum, which might only be a small jar or something. A small closed loop in the plenum additionally could resist settling away from the container.

Or maybe a closed loop with an external removable canister? Then add to this a CO2 bottle and you've got yourself a super-reactor.

-Rogue

Maxx · 12-14-2003, 06:15 PM

I think you're on to something Rogue....
Nick

mojoreef · 12-14-2003, 08:39 PM

Nikki I send Charles a email to see if he has some info. He did a 4 year study on the jaubert plenum, so hopefully he has something.

RC interesting, Cos was talking about using a circ pump with a filter to exchange the water to. With the concept of using co2, that may agood source of replacement water for the plenum at worst case
Keep em coming

Mike

NaH2O · 12-14-2003, 08:45 PM

Thanks, Mike. I just thought maybe if we new a little more about what is actually present there it might help with discussing the pros and cons of emptying the water.

Rogue....great thoughts!

mojoreef · 12-15-2003, 09:11 AM

Well Charlie emailed me back and to be honest I was a little surprised. He said he had done very detailed testing on it, he could not give the details of the numbers because he was doing an article for the AAOM, but was kind of enough to give me a summery.
The plenum (as a whole) had large fluxes of N, P, Si. From elevated levels to high levels. Nitrate was about the same as natural seawater. Ammonia was always much higher than natural seawater. The
biggest thing I saw was that this closed system tended to accumulate
organic nitrogen and had higher than normal levels (2-3X).

Aloha!

J. Charles Delbeek
Aquarium Biologist
Waikiki Aquarium
2777 Kalakaua Ave.
Honolulu, HI, USA 96815
www.waquarium.org

Flatlander · 12-15-2003, 09:16 AM

Whats this, inside info on the long awaited study.

NaH2O · 12-15-2003, 09:17 AM

Wow, thanks, Mike. The article should make an interesting read.

mojoreef · 12-15-2003, 11:21 AM

Well personally I really dont like what he said, it really shines a dim light. What do you see.

Mike

NaH2O · 12-15-2003, 11:33 AM

Actually, it made me wonder more about how helpful draining the plenum space may become. Do you know how old the systems were that were tested?

mojoreef · 12-15-2003, 11:46 AM

Nikki the systems are still going the same way they are now. I have heard alot of arguements by the outside the hobby biologists on if the DSB or plenum systems even processed nitrogen based products.. Looking at the results of this and the other testing I am really begining to lean towards thier line of thinking.
Is the nitrogen based waste being processed and off gassed, or is it being processed down to ammonium and then perking back up again and recycling all over again???? this would make sence about the phosphates leaching up to...Hmmm.

Mike

ScottT1980 · 12-15-2003, 11:55 AM

Oh man, those are some big time results that could really shape the face of the hobby. I can't wait to see the article. I still like the idea of the plenum with a "drain" and am anxious to hear if anyone is even thinking about giving it a try. My concerns fall along the same lines as Cos but by being remote, these problems can be offset a bit. Great thread, keep it going...

Take er easy
Scott T.

Maxx · 12-15-2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

The plenum (as a whole) had large fluxes of N, P, Si. From elevated levels to high levels. Nitrate was about the same as natural seawater. Ammonia was always much higher than natural seawater. The biggest thing I saw was that this closed system tended to accumulate
organic nitrogen and had higher than normal levels (2-3X).

Quote:

Is the nitrogen based waste being processed and off gassed, or is it being processed down to ammonium and then perking back up again and recycling all over again???? this would make sence about the phosphates leaching up to...Hmmm.

So does the drainable plenum make more sense? Will it be more beneficial? When does this article come out?
Nick

12-14-2003, 11:59 AM	#121 (permalink)
Pro_builder DIY Moderator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Oxford, Iowa Posts: 1,746 View Gallery Karma Komment	oh boy this is a deep subject. I will tag along to get all the info I can. Thanks for posting __________________ -Troy 180 gallon Reef, 3- 250 XM 15K MH Electronic ballast, 380 watts VHO Actinics, 2- 5 watt LED Moon lights, 100 gal rubbermaid sump, 75 gallon Fuge, ETSS 600 Skimmer, 4700-5400 gph pump for return, Octopus 3000 controller, Iwaki 40 RL skimmer pump, 2- 65w PC 10K fuge lights, 2 55 gallon barrels, Custom light oak stand and hood, misc pumps, extra 600 gallon rated tank size protein skimmer. Purple tang, yellow tang, pacific blue tang, 2 green chromis, 1 Sand sifting star, snails, hermit crabs, 2 mated perculas, pulsing Xenia, Anenome, mushrooms, ricordia, zoanthids, kenya tree 1 1/2" tall, misc other hitchhiker stuff. DIY is my dream... ...well OK the only way I can afford this Addiction!! Just as the light goes on in my head... ... I break the bulb!!

12-14-2003, 04:05 PM	#122 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Hey Cos. Your idea on how to clean the plenum zone, caught my attention the first time you came up with it, It has some merit for sure, so lets move in that direction for a moment. lets look at exactly what is in the plenum zone water. Thier should be particulate dust from the zone above (covered in baceria) thier should be some solids of detritus also. But I believe the majority of the water will be saturated with Nitrates, sulfides, and phosphates. Elements will also be thier such as calcium, but I would assume with that much phosphate present it would be in the form of calcium phosphate. Removing the particulate matter is a for sure, but I think it could be a mistake leaving this water in place. Whatcha think??? MIke __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-14-2003, 04:17 PM	#123 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	Mike, has the water located in the plenum zone ever been tested by anyone? It would be interesting to see what is exactly in there. __________________ ~Nikki~

12-14-2003, 05:15 PM	#124 (permalink)
RogueCorps Midas Blenny Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 106 View Gallery Karma Komment	To go to an extreme, how about building a plenum system with a funnelled base and a couple of valves at the bottom so that solids would collect in a base container. The valves could be closed and container removed and only the volume of the container of aerobic environment would flow through the plenum, which might only be a small jar or something. A small closed loop in the plenum additionally could resist settling away from the container. Or maybe a closed loop with an external removable canister? Then add to this a CO2 bottle and you've got yourself a super-reactor. -Rogue __________________ Mantis Shrimp Rights Activist - Have you hugged your stomatopod today?

12-14-2003, 06:15 PM	#125 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,079 View Gallery Karma Komment	I think you're on to something Rogue.... Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

12-14-2003, 08:39 PM	#126 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Nikki I send Charles a email to see if he has some info. He did a 4 year study on the jaubert plenum, so hopefully he has something. RC interesting, Cos was talking about using a circ pump with a filter to exchange the water to. With the concept of using co2, that may agood source of replacement water for the plenum at worst case Keep em coming Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-14-2003, 08:45 PM	#127 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	Thanks, Mike. I just thought maybe if we new a little more about what is actually present there it might help with discussing the pros and cons of emptying the water. Rogue....great thoughts! __________________ ~Nikki~

12-15-2003, 09:11 AM	#128 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Well Charlie emailed me back and to be honest I was a little surprised. He said he had done very detailed testing on it, he could not give the details of the numbers because he was doing an article for the AAOM, but was kind of enough to give me a summery. The plenum (as a whole) had large fluxes of N, P, Si. From elevated levels to high levels. Nitrate was about the same as natural seawater. Ammonia was always much higher than natural seawater. The biggest thing I saw was that this closed system tended to accumulate organic nitrogen and had higher than normal levels (2-3X). Aloha! J. Charles Delbeek Aquarium Biologist Waikiki Aquarium 2777 Kalakaua Ave. Honolulu, HI, USA 96815 www.waquarium.org __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-15-2003, 09:16 AM	#129 (permalink)
Flatlander Bryozoan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 46 View Gallery Karma Komment	Whats this, inside info on the long awaited study. __________________ Doug

12-15-2003, 09:17 AM	#130 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	Wow, thanks, Mike. The article should make an interesting read. __________________ ~Nikki~

12-15-2003, 11:21 AM	#131 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Well personally I really dont like what he said, it really shines a dim light. What do you see. Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-15-2003, 11:33 AM	#132 (permalink)
NaH2O Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,928 View Gallery Karma Komment	Actually, it made me wonder more about how helpful draining the plenum space may become. Do you know how old the systems were that were tested? __________________ ~Nikki~

12-15-2003, 11:46 AM	#133 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Nikki the systems are still going the same way they are now. I have heard alot of arguements by the outside the hobby biologists on if the DSB or plenum systems even processed nitrogen based products.. Looking at the results of this and the other testing I am really begining to lean towards thier line of thinking. Is the nitrogen based waste being processed and off gassed, or is it being processed down to ammonium and then perking back up again and recycling all over again???? this would make sence about the phosphates leaching up to...Hmmm. Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-15-2003, 11:55 AM	#134 (permalink)
ScottT1980 Reef Lobster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,484 View Gallery Karma Komment	Oh man, those are some big time results that could really shape the face of the hobby. I can't wait to see the article. I still like the idea of the plenum with a "drain" and am anxious to hear if anyone is even thinking about giving it a try. My concerns fall along the same lines as Cos but by being remote, these problems can be offset a bit. Great thread, keep it going... Take er easy Scott T. __________________ My Tank

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