Jaubert Plenum

[mojoreef]

You right Nick contact time and the deposit of detritus is important, but I think we could do that by manipulating plumbing.???
Now we keep getting back to this size issue on almost all systems discussed, but I dont really understand it??? so someone needs to clue me in.

mike

[Maxx]

Now we keep getting back to this size issue on almost all systems discussed, but I dont really understand it??? so someone needs to clue me in.

For the plenum to work as advertised, it has to have a larger surface area. So if it is to work a tank w/ a 36Lx18w foot print, it should have at least the same size surface area in order to be effective, right? This sorta limits things that we can keep under our tank...
Am I following the right path...or ahve gone off the deep end?
Nick

[mojoreef]

Ahhh I got ya Nick. Do you really think that pertains that much though?? If we look at any system, DSB/Plenum/BB/MM The need for exportation is always still thier. One of the pros for sand substriaghts is life form and an ammount of denitrification. Now yes if its in the main you will have a larger foot print, but in the same breathe about half (for most folks) is going to be covered by rocks. This will impact its efficiency, specially in regard to the water energy it needs. So in reality we may not be that far off, and to be honest I dont understand how we get x amount of plenum is equal to x amount of sand or plenum. From my readings I see that we have to be careful and regulate the ammount of detritus entering the plenum so as not to overload it. And that I know we can come up with a plan to solve that one. An example would be we divert 1/2 of the water coming out of the tank to the skimmer and process it that way, then take the other half and allow it to directly enter the Plenum. Just in doing that we cut the waste by 50 % and still get all the benefits of the system??

Whatcha think


Mike

[Maxx]

possible...but much easier to accomplish on a set up like w/ a 58 gallon tank than one of say 650 gallons....need one monster skimmer for that kinda flow.....BTW...I really like how you take each discussion like this and make it an intellectual exercise, but I've noticed that you didnt have a remote plenum for your gorgeous system...why would that be????
Nick

[Scooterman]

I think.........umm ok we won't go there!

In a small tank, I think a DSB would be very beneficial because of the rapid changes involved in such a small amount of water. Well unless you change water weekly, just a thought!

[mojoreef]

Nick I really like these talks to. When reefers start thinking good things happen. helps me to.
Nick I have my perfered method of filtration in my tank, i'm not pushing the plenum just trying to bring out the facts so if someone decides to run one they get all the info they need.


Scooter could be, but I guess you could look at it from a different view and say if the power went out that dsb would suck the oxygen out of that 55 in a heart beat, lol

you know I luv ya man.

Mike

[Scooterman]

When I lost power in my 30g, it went 4 days & everything lived. I didn't do anything to it, heck I wasn't there, and Hurricane Lily took over! I was expecting to hear that BTW.....

[VINA DEL MAR]

Scott A. you took the words off my mouth!First of all these systems never warned reefers in case of power loss,it is only a short time before disaster strikes.Anaerobic bacteria wil soon run out of nitrates(uses it to breath)and your tank DSB will produce toxic hydrogen sulfide.1 inch of aerobic nitrifying bacteria and 6 inches of heteotrophic(ana)bacteria,are these systems worth or what?

[mojoreef]

LOL Scoot you know me to well.

Hi Vina good to see ya in our little talk. On the bacteria the bacteria tha converts nitrate is actually faculative and will change from nitrates to Oxygen consumsion (which they perfer), this will excellerate oxygen depervation. From their on the rest and on the bacteria that only live in anaerobic is true.

Mike

[Maxx]

Vina, good to see you. I enjoyed the few discussions we had on the other board.
Mike,
Okay, I understand you're not pushing the plenum, but wouldnt a brief synopsis of the discussion help to clarify some things?
Plenums require larger surface area that isnt covered/compressed by rock to function properly. A light bio load is also indicated by this system since it "moves" slowly in converting nitrates to harmelss compounds when compared to a DSB. This plenum should be in the neighborhood of 1-3 inches deep, and covered in at least as much substrate which should be courser than crushed coral. This plenum should also be light tight, (unavailable to light exposure) in order to prevent the possibility of algal growth which would ruin the plenums purpose by releasing O2 as a by product. Hows that so far?
But can we use a hybrid system if we want a larger bio-load and want to put a little more rock in the tank? Say a plenum that we know isnt going to be as effective due to tank stocking levels, and rock content, but hook up a macro algae fuge for nutrient export in addition to what the plenum is doing? Can we adequately design a system, knowing that we are going to hamper its abilities by choice, but "make up for it" by running something else in addition to it?
Nick

[mojoreef]

Hmmm good summery and good questions..now whos making who think, lol.
Ok heres my view. Because of the size of the particles thier is less surface, but really knowing that baacteria level will rise and fall with the detritus input, I dont know if thier is as big a difference in nitrification and dentirfication, or if thier was would it make much of a difference??
On the rest of the question sure you can. In the wild thier no one filtration system, its a series of hundreds of types of filters.

Mike

[VINA DEL MAR]

Max and Mike of my experience with plenum systems is that two different substrates should be use.Crate first,some source of nylon screen,small size sand and bigger sand or crushed coral to top off the filter,(remember this is a filter).As far of ligths it should be strong and so is water flow to maintain supersaturation of oxigen above the plate.Before I forget to mention is that the sand must also be live sand to start with a good amount of bacteria.These systems should not be disturbe at any time by fish or other marinelife and expose anaerobic bacteria.This type of filter also has limitations as far of overstocking our tanks and in case of acccidental overfeeding.Why?because these type of filters are very slow bio-load reducers.Then(you are right about this Maxx)by having any extra filters we will deprived our tank plenum system of nutrients.The same goes to have macro algae as a way to export organic matters.We will talk some more about this later and thank you Mike and Maxx for giving all these information to all the reefers here!! you guys are teaching us a lot.VINA

[mojoreef]

We all learn together. Ok time to twist things up a bit.lol
I want to throw couple of thoughts past you folks. Now one of the cons of a sand substriaght is the slow and eventualy loss of the areobic zone (oxygenated zone) do to things build and cloging. If we were to go large particle size say double of cc. we could keep the majority of the plenum oxygenated through waterflow (energy). This combo of highly oxygenated water and flow would create a great enviroment for critters, which perfer rocky substraights, and would still provide a good base for areobic bacteria to perform nitrification (ammonia to nitrate). Now under the plenum is for two things one for denitrification and for the melting of sand particles to replenish elements. Ok now on the above system the plenum zone is void of anything but the low ph water. So what if prior to set up we install some simple piping (say 1/2 pipes) that have holes drilled in them, we run thre or four pipes the length of the under plenum area. we bring it up to one central fitting that exits the plenum space and comes up about the water level of the remote plenum. So now it goes in to use water below the plenum begins to drop in ph and the anareobic zone is formed and fuctions, the well airated upper zone has high energy and is kept areobic. we add some of the critters (worms/snails maybe a cuke or two and so on). We over load the system, as in Its smaller then the tank but the tank has the heavy bioload. The system will still perform nitrification and critter action and water flow will force the extra waste down to the anaerobic zone along with all the other non processable goods. This will create a build up in the lower plenum zone over time.....BUT..we got the lower zone plumbed. Once every six months or so to beat the build up we shut off the plenum from the tank system. we manually stir up the top bed causeing even more waste to sift down to the anaerobic zone. then we tank a PH and suck all the water out of the lower plenum area. and thus suck out all of the build up.
OK this is what will happen. the areobic zone will be cleared and pobibly wont miss a beet, no bugs/larvae and so on will be lost as we are doing no direct syphoning of the upper plenum area the inhabit. We will loose an ammount of our anaerobic bacteria but since they are fuculative they will just convert oxygen instead of nitrate until that areas oxygen is reduced. then they will be back in biz. now thier will be a time of no nitrate reduction but we have to remember that we have also cleared the upper area so it will taake some time for the upper bacteria to actualy produce nitrate.
HMMMMMMMmmmmmm??????? whatcha think????


Mike

[Maxx]

Mike,
is this basically what you're talking about?

[NaH2O]

Nick, that's how I pictured it.

Mike, do you think when the water gets sucked out an eventual mini cycle in the tank would be created, while waiting for the bacteria to get back to their "normal" anaerobic state?