Summaryof filtration systems

[achilles]

Mojo
I wasn't trying to start up the DSB debate either. For those that are interested, there is no shortage of posts on many forums that can be found, that debate DSBs. I'm also not really a DSB advocate, but like you, I want to make sure people understand the system they choose.

From my understanding, the DSB, does not (for the most part) directly export non nitrogenous nutrients. But via another mechanism, like skimming, critters who have consumed and are composed of those nutrients can be exported. And hey pulling nuisance alge is an export mechanism too, right?

The debate stems from the fact that people believe that the DSB sinks nutrients faster than what are exported, or it just sinks some anyhow as they work their way through the DSB. Therefore they believe that the DSB has a finite lifetime (when it is full). I agree with mojo, that that is not the issue here, it is more on understanding they way a system works. That's why I wanted to mention that there is export vehicle with DSBs.

[SZHTTM]

Originally posted by Reef Geek
Szhttm,
I read that to be that is has a limited life span, eventually it will stop working. Something without a life span will keep working ... Right?

Yep, that is extacly what I meant. I guess I just didn't state my question correctly.

Thanks!!;

[SZHTTM]

Originally posted by mojoreef
SZHTTM thier is another thread in this forum that has a good thread on a dsb, take a quick peek and post that thier, that way we can keep this one going in this direction.

thanks my friend

Mike

Sorry, but I tried looking and could not find anything that answers my questions:

So, how can a sand bed have a limited life span? It is not the sand that's alive, its the bacteria and other forms of life? Understanding that the actual sand is not alive, why would you consider the other life forms as having a limited life span? Would they not regenerate and propogate? I understand that something traumatic like the over use of copper could kill everything off; but your statements seems to be a blanket one that states that the bacteria and critters living in the sand will all die off one day even if the tank is kept at optimal conditions at all times. That's where I'm confused...

So if you could explain why you think a DSB has a limited lifespan that would help me greatly!!!

Thanks again;

[achilles]

SZHTTM
Not lifespan as in the DSB critters die, but a lifespan as in the DSB is unable to process any more waste. So nothing actually dies, but the DSB stops working (dead).

The theory behind this is that the DSB stores nutrients. It will export some of those nutrients (nitrate), but not all (phosphate). Those nutrients will eventually fill up the DSB and make their way back into the water column.

There is alot of science behind this and many threads out there that discuss the specifics both from those who believe this happens and those that don't. If you want more info, I'd do a search a reef central. Also, look in Dr Ron's forum

[SZHTTM]

Thanks achilles!!!

I now understand the definition of life span within the text of this thread.

Thanks again!!!

[NaH2O]

Great thread, Mike!

Szhttm, there are ways to keep a DSB "fresh", so it will have a lengthened life span, such as replacing part of the SB in a remote location...but I don't want to get into that here.

I have a question about the Starboard product that is being used more frequently. Here is a link provided by Maxx on another thread: Starboard. Would detritus build up underneath, causing future problems? I understand syphoning up the detritus, but without taking out all of the rock and removing the starboard, I'm not sure how any trapped detritus would be removed???

Hope this question was ok to put here???

[Cosmic]

I think this is a great idea for a thread also, but like Mojo, I've never found it an easy task of putting it all together. Over the years, we have tried numerous methods to keep our tank's inhabitants alive. i think Mojo simply wants to go over the various means of reefkeeping, with the emphasis on the methods they used for filtration.

The very first of them all was actually the sand bed. Back in the early 1900's a guy was able to get sanddollars to breed after he tried using live sand from the ocean. That was a simple experiment with the "tank" being a mason jar, with a handful of sand and ocean water, changed daily.

The first "hobbyist" filter available for saltwater was the undergravel filter. This was a god-send at the time when it was nearly impossible to keep fish alive for long. It works by mechanical and biological filtration mainly, with chemical being added if needed. The crushed coral acted as a buffering agent, and also as a place for bacteria to colonize, just like in fresh water tanks. It also acted to catch large particles of waste which then would get siphoned out on a regular basis. Bacteria would thrive in the pocket of water under the plate, and the airstone both oxygenated the water and provided a means of drawing water through the gravel.

Cons of this method are consistent water changes to remove debris, as well as the need to rip up the UG filter plate when enough waste accumulated under it (which will inevitably happen). It also does nothing for breaking down nitrates, meaning alternate methods are needed to control this. It does not favor burrowing fish or many critters.

From there, we flocked over to power filters of all sorts. While these do great for freshwater fish, it's not the easiest in a marine environment. I'm also going to include canister filters, since they work ideally the same way as a PF, only hidden under the tank, and a bit more powerful. Powerfilters are a step up from UG filtration. They have the ability to trap waste on a pad instead of using the gravel bed. This enables the waste to be removed on a much easier basis, and allowed for a cleaner (healthier) environment. It still handled mechanical and biological filtration, but almost always adds Chemical (carbon) filtration as well. Some PF's started using grids or wheels to increase the amount of bacteria-driven filtration the filter can handle, but they still cannot achieve reduction of nitrates.

Pros include being small, quiet, and easily cleaned. Can handle nitrogenous waste, up to a point. Has mechanical and chemical filtration also.

Cannot handle nitrates, or have as much bacterial filtration as a substrate bed. Must replace cartidges on a frequent basis ($$). Must be cleaned regularly or diminishing returns result.

Then we move into the wet-dry filtration. This basically was an upgrade from the undergravel filter, but at the same time had some of the same downfalls. W/D's do nothing to help control nitrates, meaning denitrification is not coming full circle, and exportation is not being achieved optimally. The emphasis was put on aerobic bacteria to handle ammonia and nitrite. At the time, Nitrates were not suspected of being extremely hazardous.

The W/D allowed a bigger volume of water on the same size tank, which began to provide a bit of stability to our tanks. It also allowed us to start REMOVING items from our tank, and hiding them in the W/D. This was a main reason for the popularity of W/D's IMO.

Drawbacks are the inability to handle nitrates, meaning alternate methods are needed. Tended to be difficult to setup properly. Also fairly pricey compared to previous methods of filtration.

After this came the plenum and the DSB, both having benefits and drawbacks as well. In either case, we moved into being able to now handle the full denitrification process. Nitrates for the first time can be broken down to a gaseous state and exported. For this reason, I usually group these in the same category, even though they are distinctly different in thier own ways. Most of the benefits and drawbacks of these have been covered so far, so I'm going to skip these for now.

Then we move into alternate means of filtration, such as the infamous skimmer, algal filters, refugiums, xenia farms, mangrove sumps, etc.

These are mostly ways of adding the missing component to one of the above methods. In most cases, it's a means of nitrate and phosphate uptake, but it can also manage dissolved organics (DOM) or possibly even inorganic waste.

My fingers are starting to get a bit cramped, but there's so much more I can add. Too bad I can't type as fast as my brain thinks it
Take some of this into consideration, maybe ask a few resultant questions? Give me a little more direction and I can offer a ton more on the subject.

great thread Mojo!
Cos

[mojoreef]

Alrighty now were cooking folks.
Scooterman what you just said is exactly why I want to do this. Thier is so much misinformation/opinion oriented info that new folks dont have a chance and to be honest alot of its is pretty intence. Another problem is that passion alot of the time gets in the way of facts. I truely believe that DSB's/plenums/bb system all can work well, but in order to work well they must be layed out by what the thinking behind it is (the concept). then couple that with the pros and cons and a person has a fighting chance with whatever system they choose.
Now a so called expert could write something up or even I could but it will be inherently skewed to that persons wants, or vision. I think that has been seen very clearly. But on RS we have alot of good reefers, some have been doing this for decades some just very knowledgable or experenced. If we could put this together as a colaboration, I dont think it could get any better then that. And lets make it about systems, not individual forms (as in skimming, biological, mechcanical) but more on DSD system, plenum system, BB system.
Whatcha think????

Nikki I dont know about the starboard thing, although Jerel is one of my best friends, I think it looks weird and you do have a good point. That and the biggest problem is that you dont even get the Ginzu Knife set with it


Mike

[Maxx]

Would detritus build up underneath, causing future problems? I understand syphoning up the detritus, but without taking out all of the rock and removing the starboard, I'm not sure how any trapped detritus would be removed???

Okay,
just for the record, I don't actually know Jerel, just like his interpretation of an older concept. Nikki, once simple answer for this question....glue that sucker down! Nothing can get under it if it is secured to the tank bottom. I would think that silicone would work fine for that purpose. Also, I would honestly think that depending on your aquascaping and rock work placement, that they (rocks) would press the Starboard flat and prevent it from letting detritus under it. I will let everyone know what I experiance and how I deal w/ it as soon as my tank is up and running...should be couple of weeks, (after New Years...lots of bartending to do between now and then... )

I think it looks weird and you do have a good point. That and the biggest problem is that you dont even get the Ginzu Knife set with it

It only looks weird until you get coraline growing all over everything. I let ya know how the knife set works too, Mike
Nick

[Curtswearing]

BTW folks. Jerel, Bomber, Spanky, and any other names he might go by on forums I have never visited siliconed his starboard down. It's basically the thick white plastic that cutting boards are made out of.

I was trying to get out the door because I had a lot of things running through my head about what I wanted to post when I got home. Unfortunately, we had a power surge and then a blackout at the office for a very short time. I was stuck at the office running diagnostics on the servers and everyones computers while other people were stealing what I wanted to say once I got home.

[NaH2O]

Originally posted by Maxx
Okay,
just for the record, I don't actually know Jerel, just like his interpretation of an older concept. Nikki, once simple answer for this question....glue that sucker down! Nothing can get under it if it is secured to the tank bottom. I would think that silicone would work fine for that purpose. Also, I would honestly think that depending on your aquascaping and rock work placement, that they (rocks) would press the Starboard flat and prevent it from letting detritus under it. I will let everyone know what I experiance and how I deal w/ it as soon as my tank is up and running...should be couple of weeks, (after New Years...lots of bartending to do between now and then... )
It only looks weird until you get coraline growing all over everything. I let ya know how the knife set works too, Mike
Nick

I'll be interested to see how it works for you, Nick. I can imagine that with it glued down and sealed tightly that you wouldn't get detritus built up...it would just be a matter of making sure that you have a good seal. I like the idea better than a BB (as long as detritus isn't a problem), as the LR isn't sitting directly on the glass and weight is distributed.

[Scooterman]

Starboard he use was designed for boats but is used commercially for various things. I myself would like to see the Gensu. If you used a sheet of acrylic, it would work out to the same affect, just clear & cheaper.

On another note, is there a way to recycle sand? I remember long ago we'd wash our rubble & start all over, althought it was cheap to replace.

[NaH2O]

Originally posted by Scooterman

On another note, is there a way to recycle sand? I remember long ago we'd wash our rubble & start all over, althought it was cheap to replace.

Good question. Also, when you replace the sand is there any way to get the critters out for your fresh sand? I guess you wouldn't want to replace the whole shabang at once, but would do it in stages, and maybe the other critters would populate the new sand. Alright, I think I answered my own question...lol

[Curtswearing]

Thanks for the posts everyone. They have been informative and useful (but 2 years from now they might not be). I'm sorry, we are on a new frontier. That's reefing in 2003. Reefing in 2005 will be so much better if people question conventional wisdom, test, try new things, don't copy others, keep an open mind, and strive for excellence.

The "New Frontiers" forum is designed for open communication because we truly still don't understand all of the processes going on in our tanks. I read, read, read but a lot of the things I was convinced about a year ago no longer hold true. Another point of view is always greatly appreciated---at least for me.

However.....let's get to the task at hand. All filtration methods have their pro's and con's. RS is definately a 'New Frontier' and this very informative thread deserves to be in a 'New Frontier' forum.

I'm sure none of you have seen this line before LOL---'There is more than one way to skin a cat'.

I have seen awesome tanks that use many different filtration methods. Well----let's make this a thread that stands the test of time. This thread is intended to discuss openly what we know to this date.

I know most of the people on this thread and I know how much you know. Most of you guys have gathered a huge amount of knowledge regarding different methods of filtration and people are BEGGING for this info.

Well, let's give it to them..........

All of you continually impress me!!!

[dgasmd]

You know, I have come full circle on the cocept of filtration for MY tank. Before setting it up, I read for like 2 years in RC about every single subject related to reefs. I had freshwater tanks for 12 years prior to that and the syphoning of gravel was second nature and a given with weekly water changes. Somehow I must have been blinded or everwhelmed by the mass of information that common sense did not kick in. This I should have seen coming a mile away.
I thought the concept of a DSB was good and went with it. One year later in my 360 g tank, you could not pay me enough to keep it. My conclusion is that the amount of work it would take to mantain it is well beyond the amount of work I put in my tank currently. That is not to mention the cost. Then again, I have to ask the primary question: what am I getting out of it that is so majestic to justify the great expense of time and money (replenishing critters constantly)?
A the end of a year, all I am getting out of it is:
*0 nitrates (can be achieved by other ways).
*a constant supply of phosphates to feed The Phosban people and to feed the constant supply and ever present cyano.

I am convinced I have learned my lesson the hard way. Even mistakes and failures must be a learning experience if you are to move ahead the best way possible.

I am redoing things completely and will be more in line with how mojoreef here does things. Not because of imitation, which I would gladly admit to if it was the case, but because it goes along my way of interpreting the solution to a simple problem.