DOTW - Skimming

[wooddood]

tony that i dont know but i'm sure someone will answer this soon. good luck buddy

[NaH2O]

Just a little supplemental material for those talking about mud systems and macros.

Analysis of Ecosystem's Miracle Mud

What is your favorite Macro and why?

[addict]

Well, the only thing I can really offer on skimmers is a suggestion for sizing... most skimmers are overrated for their actual ability.
Rather than look to a manufacturer rating, look at the pump... normally you'll want 3x-4x tank volume through the skimmer per hour for maximum efficiency... so if you have a 120g tank, you'll want a skimmer with a pump rated at 500gph or more. (4x120g = ~500gph).
Of course the pump will probably be producing less than it's rated capacity being that it's also pumping air into the skimmer (at least on venturi models).

I'm not sure if this also holds true with beckett skimmers, since they need a more powerful pump than most venturi models.

[Witfull]

good thoughts everyone.

let me start with what is our goal when dealing with waste? its to render it harmless to our tank. there are several ways of doing it. one is to biologically break it down into nitrogen gas and inert detrius.(DSB,Mudd) another is by consumpsion. have other creatures eat the waste thereby bonding the organics into their bodies. (detrivore kits. macro algaes) and from physical removal. (mechanical filtration,skimmers)

personally, i do not think that that the DSB/Mudd system as long term, in the fact that waste is being held onto. every tank is different and so no schedule can de adhered to,as more and more waste accumulates its functionality exponentially degrades and when saturation occurs it can suddenly result in a crash/hair bloom/cyno outbreak, which leads to headaches to say the least.

consumpsion will only bond some of the inorganics for the life of the creature, and they only process a fraction of the organics, leaving their waste to other creatures to consume. with macros harvesting is possible and is has many benefits.

this leaves physical removal. micro pads/socks do wonders of a tank to remove particulate matter, i believe in them. but allot of waste can flow right through them, this leads us to the skimmer.

personally i feel that the more i can remove before it breaks down, the less stress i put on the system. i can rely less on bacteria, no detrivore kits to continuously restock. less bioload on my tank consuming oxygen, allowing more for the stuff i want to keep.

lets keep this tube bubbling....

[NaH2O]

Let's face facts, not everyone wants a bare bottom tank. It is important for those that choose to have a substrate, or other forms of filtration (i.e. Miracle Mud, macros, etc) to understand their function and have appropriate husbandry. Proper set-up and maintenance is important. For example, Miracle Mud - the website shows how to set it up, and also recommends changing out 1/2 of the mud every couple of years (to go off of memory). I can also argue filter socks have their own issues....having a sock full of gunk is just as bad as having a rotting area of detritus in the tank....the husbandry is important.

On with the skimmer....I'll give a little info on how the skimmer actually removes the organic compounds. Dissolved Organic Compounds (DOCs) are removed by protein skimmers. DOCs are the result of biological materials that have broken down. They are a bipolar molecules.....which means they have at least one atom that likes water, and at least one atom that likes air. What happens is these molecules see the surface of the bubble and want to stick to it. So, you end up with a bubble that is covered in these. Picture a sticky lollipop and roll it around on the carpet....all the fibers that stick to the lollipop represent the DOCs stuck to the lollipop/bubble. As the bubbles rise to the top, more of the DOC accumulate together creating the foam that ends up in the cup. The longer the bubble remains in touch with the DOCs, the more will be removed. Think about the lollipop again, and the longer you roll it in the carpet, the more fibers will be stuck. Also, the longer the bubble is in contact with the DOCs the better chance less "sticky" molecules will have a chance to "stick". There are a number of things that skimmers remove beyond DOCs. Left over food, bacteria, planktons, trace elements, metabolites, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), and particulate organic compounds (POCs).

What are the different types of skimmers? Beckett , needlewheel/aspirating, downdraft, venturi injector, counter-current ...am I missing any?

What makes a skimmer work more efficiently.....height? Width? Flow rate?

[wooddood]

sorry dave [ra] but i dont think my minds that bad yet but 4x 120 is 480 i believe lol. i know quit nick picking, but i just had to get ya lol. but i get your drift anyway buddy.

[NaH2O]

I believe someone asked about mangroves....here is some information: Mangroves in the Reef Aquarium

[Brucey]

I run a relativley light bio-load with a skimmer rated for twice my tank size and it still pulls about an 1" skum a week. I can't imagine dumping the muck back into the tank and letting the natural filtartion take it out. IMO, a skimmer is an absolute must but i do turn mine off for 1 day a week when i feed the corals and then i just leave them to it.

I once had an anenome go through a PH and the skimmer pulled 3 capfulls (approx 10 gallons) of skum in 24 hours. I lost half my live stock but saved the rest. Without the skimmer I'm pretty sure i would have lost the lot.

Brucey

[middletonmark]

I skim both of my tanks because I'd rather have the nutrients removed than left around to be `dealt with'. Enough will be remaining. But I'm most focused on my SPS tank, which looks best when water has low dissolved nutrients IME.

Depends on the inhabitants, though. Comparatively, I don't skim my softie tank as much, and while there's algae there, it seems some of the inhabitants benefit from more dissolved nutrients.

[Curtswearing]

Yeah dave I want to put some mangroves in my also!! You think I can mix those with caulerpa?

Yes but you will get even slower growth out of them than you would if they were growing alone. The caulerpa will outcompete them. You must also never allow the leaves to fall into the sump or all of the nasties will go right back into the water column.

What makes a skimmer work more efficiently.....height? Width? Flow rate?

Your post answered some of these questionsl already. Different types of skimmers approach the same issues of bubble surface area in different ways. Some are very tall so that the bubbles are in contact with the water column longer. Others are made to fit into fish cabinets so they attempt to have more tiny bubbles to increase surface area. More surface area means more DOC's are being removed.

Let's face it. We want our glass boxes filled with water to be attractive. To prevent nuisance algaes and cyano's and provide clean water for our corals and fish, it's important to export our nutrients well. A protein skimmer removes wastes BEFORE they break down into D.O.C.'s. Obviously some of the solid wastes are going to be missed so we will have DOC's in a skimmed tank as well. Luckily a protein skimmer has the ability to remove these as well which has been discussed.

DOC' can also be removed with various macroalgaes. As many of you know, I have an ecosystem fuge but I will not run it without a skimmer like Leng Sy recommends. As a result, I feel I have the right to comment on both. It does very well as a backup in my mind but there is no way on God's green earth I will run my tank with it as anything other than an additional as opposed to a primary type of filtration.

I agree with Leng Sy that people shouldn't use them with the "safe" macroalgaes. I have reasons for my beliefs....many of them are as a result of my side-hobby in Bonsai but most of them are as a result of the movie The Karate Kid. To paraphrase, Mr. Miyagi said the following.....

Karate Yes....fine
Karate No....fine
Karate halfway....squish

To put this in reefing terms.....

Export with macroalgae Yes....fine
Export with macroalgae No....fine
Export halfway with macroalgae....squish

I can't speak for other people's tanks but I find that the "safe" or "halfway" macro's really don't accomplish very many positive things but still subject the tank to the same negatives that ANY macroalgae does.....TOXINS. ANY critter that is sessile needs to either camoflauge itself for protection against predators or repel predators or reproduce with abandon. Macroalgae's can't camoflauge themselves so they use toxins to repel predators.

For a short time I ran Chaetomorpha linum as well as caulerpa in my fuge. I liked the fact that the amphipods liked the spaghetti mac so much but it BARELY GREW. If it's not growing by leaps and bounds in our nutrient-laden boxes of water, it's useless IMO for an export mechanism.

Toxins in Halimeda Defense for Macroalgaes

[Witfull]

yes mark some creatures do require more nutrients, Borneman is going to be experimenting with elegance corals to see if they require a higher nitrient levels, lagoonal setting rather than forereef, this may be true as well for gonipora.

another question... can water be overstripped by skimming?

[Curtswearing]

There might be a few lagoonal species like goniopora or elegance that might benefit from higher nutrients.

However, in my book we don't have the ability to overskim the typical reef tank. They are enclosed systems and don't have the ability to do what is done in the ocean....namely have currents that remove the waste products from the reef. Corals need very few nutrients to obtain their required nitrogen and they are intolerant of liquid forms of it (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) and other dissolved organic compounds. Obviously they need additional nutrients but they have the ability to extract dissolved bio-available N from the water at low ambient levels, and also they capture and consume microscopic prey (zooplankton not phytoplankton) as well as bacteria and particles of edible detritus that come into contact with their mucus layer.

Knowing that they are intolerant of DOC's and liquid forms of Nitrogen indicates to me that we cannot overskim with our current technology.

[addict]

sorry dave [ra] but i dont think my minds that bad yet but 4x 120 is 480 i believe lol. i know quit nick picking, but i just had to get ya lol. but i get your drift anyway buddy.

Well, I guess the nitpick is alright.... but...
The one little thing you missed (which I guess not a lot of people are aware of) is the little '~' character, which is shorthand for 'around' or 'near'... so... keeping that in mind, re-read my post again...

Looks like I'll start having to write that out longhand...

[wooddood]

yea yea yea you probably edited that in lol.

[Curtswearing]

^