Phosphate Phad?

[Woodstock]

I wish there was a color change or some other way to know when the phosban media was "full". How often do you guys change yours?

Doesn't skimming remove phospates too?

[Witfull]

sharks, just order a Vortex,,,its what we OFR's use. make sure you get the charging valve or run it on a bucket so you dont blow powder into the tank. they also have carbon powder you can mix in or use separately. great gadget to have...thats why they have been sold for 30yrs.

[mojoreef]

doni thier will be a color change, not in the media but in your tank. I just look for the alge, once I get some on the glass or rocks its time for a change. You can do it mathimatically but its a tough one.

votex does a tank good, lol


Mike

[Woodstock]

LOL mojo! thx

[NaH2O]

Sharks, someone mentioned to me that phosban should not be used in a fluidized reactor. Does it say anything on the packaging? I'm curious now...

[BoomerD]

I wrote to Julian Sprung after my orange tank mess. Here's his response:

It is true that using PhosBan in a fluidized filter is the best way to use it, BUT... the design of the fluidized filter can make or break the application. Probably you are using a Merlin or similar filter. These will pulverize the PhosBan because they don't have a dispersion plate and sponge pad at the base to keep the PhosBan away from the bottom where the water enters with force.

What is probably happening then is that the PhosBan is at the bottom of the filter where the water enters with force, and it is being pulverized there.

We have a solution- Two Little Fishies is introducing a fluidized
reactor called the PhosBan Reactor 150. It holds up to 200 grams of PhosBan and works with a maxijet 500 or Eheim 1046. It includes a ball valve to regulate the flow. The retail price is around $40. It will be available from mail order supply houses in a few weeks."


The new Phosban reactor is out, and I've seen it for just under $40.00 here:
North Coast Marine...Specials
Here'a a good thread from one of the local reef clubs on Phosban:

B.A.R.E. Phosban thread

[Travis]

Well, it looks like this one is coming full circle rather quickly.... reports of slowed SPS growth and even RTN when using PO4 reactors...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=370825

[mojoreef]

Thats funny travis

Mike

[Witfull]

ok,,,,heres a question. phos is everywhere and even in our tanks we can measure 0 when in fact we do have it and it is being utilized as quickly as it is available. if we actively chemically remove PO4 does that effect the growth or even the life of zooxanthellae?

[NaH2O]

I'd have to say no. Mainly because I think the uptake of IP by bacteria, algaes, etc. would be much faster than the time it would take for the sponge to take it out. The sponge is there to get what free IP happens to pass thru it, but if an organism is next to the IP when it becomes available, I think it will jump on it. When all the organisms are full the IP is more readily available....personally, I don't see how we can "short" our systems of IP, as we are constantly introducing it, and something is always dying (whether bacteria, algae, or LR shedding) introducing IP back into the water.

someone correct me if I'm way wrong....

[mps9506]

Originally posted by BoomerD
I wrote to Julian Sprung after my orange tank mess. Here's his response:

It is true that using PhosBan in a fluidized filter is the best way to use it, BUT... the design of the fluidized filter can make or break the application. Probably you are using a Merlin or similar filter. These will pulverize the PhosBan because they don't have a dispersion plate and sponge pad at the base to keep the PhosBan away from the bottom where the water enters with force.

What is probably happening then is that the PhosBan is at the bottom of the filter where the water enters with force, and it is being pulverized there.

We have a solution- Two Little Fishies is introducing a fluidized
reactor called the PhosBan Reactor 150. It holds up to 200 grams of PhosBan and works with a maxijet 500 or Eheim 1046. It includes a ball valve to regulate the flow. The retail price is around $40. It will be available from mail order supply houses in a few weeks."

Andy at MRC just put out his reactor too. It has a pad at the bottom for dispersion and to keep the phosban out of the tank. Pretty pricey though


I'm glad I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. No offense meant to anyone that uses Phosban or rowa. I'm just lucky I haven't had any phosphate problems yet, or felt that phosphates were slowing my SPS growth.

One thing I am noticing, a lot of people that are mentiong there experiences with Rowa or Phosban, have only been using it for a month or two. Some folks a little longer, not too many people have really been using Iron based phosphate removers for a significant period of time (IMO). I feel like quite a few people of late have been jumping the gun on this issue, I've just stood back and watched in the meantime. I think people are very quick to point the finger to blame something for various problems.
Sorry, starting to rant

Back to Phosphates...
Wit,
The reason I see the concern for phosphates is because: one, it helps fuel annoying algae growth, and two, it slows or inhibits calcification or growth of stoney corals. I'm not to concerned with the Zoox, they do reproduce fairly well as far as I am aware
NaH20,
You are correct from the way I see it. That is why it is important to reduce the introduction of phosphates as much as possible.
Phosphates will become bound up and become unavalible over time in the aquarium (Actually one of the reasons a well maintained DSB can be a good thing )
Just some stuff I was thinking...
Mike

[Witfull]

mike, i know the concerns of phos, i just like to throw things out there, never know where a conversation may go! hypothetical hypothosis has done wonders.

[Travis]

First of all, I pretty much agree with everyone here.

I do think people have jumped on a bandwagon quickly here, and this is not the "using RP or PB" bandwagon. It's actually building the CONSTANT use of these materials into your system that concerns me. Have we not learned anything? "Don't run any chemicals/media you don't have to" is some of the best and most common advice around. I'm sure these products do a great job at fixing a problem. It's their use as a preventive measure that seems out of hand to me.

Nikki, someone in that thread brough up some good points- an initial change in chemistry and an increase in clarity seems to me to be enough to send SPS back into "adjusting mode" where they grow slowly and are at higher risk for RTN. After all, their environment has changed, and we know well by now that SPS react to those changes with these exact behaviors.

T

[Curtswearing]

I LOVE the New Frontiers Forum....GREAT DISCUSSION!!!....I'm probably completely wrong but at least this forum makes me dig. I've never used Rowaphos in a fluidized bed reactor. I've only run it passively in a filter bag so I can't comment fully on the issue. My tank (anecdotally) was greatly improved by using Rowaphos. Anecdotally, I never had coralline algae before using it (which I once greatly desired but now I hate).

Since all of my evidence is anecdotal, lets think this through as the posts on RC are every bit as anecdotal as what I just mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Just thinking out loud here. Zoox require both N and P for growth. We know that that corals are able to take up dissolved bio-available N from the water at LOW ambient levels. The can get the various types of P and N from bacteria, fish poop, blender mush, as well as dissolved inorganic phosphates.

We also know that phosphorus
Inhibits Calcification

I'm going to have to go digging into my browser history a little here but I was just reading about a coral reef that was being destroyed by excess nutrients (both N and P) as a result of excess nutrients due to human activity. Granted, it's not about a reef tank but maybe the research on the real McCoy is better. Here's a little that I've already found but I will dig a little more and try to find the rest of the info.

Olivieri (1997) describes some of the fine points of “eutrophication,” including how excess nutrients have a harmful effect on coral by overstimulating the growth of zooxanthellae to a point where their “uncontrolled” growth disrupts the normal function of the coral: “Eutrophication also operates at the zooxanthellae level. Excess nutrients increase zooxanthellae growth, which, counterintuitively, is not beneficial for the coral host. Under natural conditions zooxanthellae populations are fairly constant and nutrient-limited, particularly by nitrates, within the coral host. With excess nutrients the zooxanthellae population grows uncontrolled and the balance of the nitrogen-carbon fluxes between the coral host and zooxanthellae is disrupted, resulting in a reduction of calcification and weakening of the coral calcareous skeleton.” (Olivieri, 1997)

Eutrophication is widely blamed on problems with a lot of coral reefs.

This is the same thing that happens with excess calcium based on a previous discussions and posts with Mojoreef. The coral is stuck with calcium but doesn't want it. Readers of the New Frontiers forum know that calcium is bad for the coral so it gets rid of it and a coral reef is born. Here's some more basic INFO

OK...what's the problem here? Were the corals in overdrive previously due to excess nutrients which will cause an early death? Is the Iron in RowaPhos causing a chemistry shift in the water or accumulating in our tanks? Is this merely due to anecdotal evidence?

Let's continue the discussion......

[Travis]

Originally posted by Travis
an initial change in chemistry and an increase in clarity seems to me to be enough to send SPS back into "adjusting mode" where they grow slowly and are at higher risk for RTN. After all, their environment has changed, and we know well by now that SPS react to those changes with these exact behaviors.

T

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.