LPS and BB

tommyp · 12-31-2003, 02:21 PM

Hi all,

Been reading all the BB/starboard threads and I am wondering what would be a good setup for LPS which I primarily have. I agree if you are running an sps tank the high turnover rates that keep all the detritus suspended, BB will work great. but what happens when you need less flow.

I am sure that BB would be easier than a dsb for maintainence. But will a low flow make a bb tank less viable than a high flow bb tank?

I would love to have a little bit of sand 1" or so but then it would trap detritus but I guess I could also replace sand a little at a time to make sure things don't build up.

Thanks

tommyp

Maxx · 12-31-2003, 03:05 PM

I dont think it would be less viable due to less flow. The lack of a substrate on BB tanks allows for higher flow if wanted, but you dont have to run it that way. I would suggest that if going w/ lower flow for LPS, that you plan out your live rock configuration and map out your flow patterns and where areas of little to no flow will be that will collect detritus. This way you have a good idea of where to look for build up when it comes time to siphon.
BB tanks simply make it easier to remove detritus from the tank. Thats the main concept behind them.
HTH,
Nick

tommyp · 12-31-2003, 03:13 PM

I guess I was reading too much into the high flow rates needed to keep detrius suspended. I agree that maintance would be easier. now just to get the sand out.

Is there any downside as far as buffering when you remove the sand? I have always read that the sand bed helps PH stability?

Maxx · 12-31-2003, 03:21 PM

I'm sure it does to some degree, but if your tank is mature, you shouldnt be having PH instability problems anyway....
Nick

tommyp · 12-31-2003, 03:31 PM

No ph instability here but was just trying to cut through the "benifits" of sand

Thanks

Tom

ReefLady · 12-31-2003, 03:42 PM

Tom,

AFAIK, the "benefits" of sand are purely dentrification and increased biodiversity.

I personally think that the idea of a DSB adding stability to pH has been proved to be bunk -- along with the old thought that it would buffer ca/alk. In order for ca/alk to be buffered with aragonite sand, the pH would have to be so low as to harm everything in the tank.

Speaking only from experience, bare bottom tanks were very popular many many years back. This was well before the increase in sps popularity (MH lighting was not common), and as such, for most hobbyists, flow rates of 10x plus were unheard of.

As Nick said, simply arrange your rock to enable good flow throughout. You want to be able to siphon the bottom of the tank, as well as have it loosely stacked enough so that a quick run-through with a turkey baster will suspend a lot of detritus. Remember that as long as you don't overfeed, and have a decent cleanup crew, you shouldn't have an abundance of detritus.

Also - it's not as if you don't have detritus in a DSB tank - it's just that you don't notice it as much because it appears as part of the substrate.

HTH!

tommyp · 12-31-2003, 04:43 PM

I am just coming to the realization that there are so many different types of tanks and ways to solve the export issues related to each.

I think I am going to slowly remove my sand from my tank. I don't do any maintainence on it and I would rather see the nasties in my tank than hide them in the bed. I have a feeling that my cyano problems were due to the DSB because it trapped alot of the detritus from curing rock in the tank. My clowns are also making a mess of the sand as it is. I'll just have to keep an eye on the nitrates.

Thanks

Tom

jks1 · 12-31-2003, 05:01 PM

I dont want to hijack this thread, but as Tommy said i think 1" of sand is more attractive than BB. How does everyone feel about shallow sand beds for asthetics?

mojoreef · 12-31-2003, 05:42 PM

Tom just becareful of the slow removal my friend. the nasty stuff builds from the bottom up in the bed and now you are going to be removing from the top down, at some point in time your going to meet and it may not be a good thing.
On your lps question, dont worry so much you can just make sure thier is no direct flow bouncing onto them. that what I do for my LPS

Mike

mojoreef · 12-31-2003, 05:46 PM

John thier is no dought that a bit of sand on the bottom looks good. I personally wish it didnt come with so many hang ups or I would do it myself. I can tell you that you BB wont be BB for long it gets covered with corraline in a hurry and thick. thier is also nothing stoping you from laying out some zoo's or ricordia also. I my new aquascape I made a few trenches and plan on dropping in a few clams to sit on the bottom.

Mike

tommyp · 12-31-2003, 06:53 PM

Thanks mojo

I am going to start to remove the sand that my clowns have turned into dunes. I figure that is strirred up enough not to cause problems.

As far as the rest I am not sure what I am going to do. I don't want to pull everything out but I guess it might come to that in the future.

Mojo will the clams be okay w/o sand? I have a hippopsis that I would hope to keep.

Thanks

Tom

mojoreef · 12-31-2003, 08:44 PM

Sounds like a good plan tom. On the hippo question I would refer you to barryN from clamsdirect. He is a sponcer of the baord and has his own forum. Its been a long time since I kept a hippo, so I dont feel very comfortable about answering. But Barry has a good knowledge of all things clam.

take care and happy new year

Mike

mps9506 · 01-28-2004, 08:09 PM

This is a waaaay late reply to this thread. But I thought I'd throw in that we've had no problems keeping Croceas and maximas on barebottome tanks. I do like to place a flat old oyster shell or peice of base rock under them to support them and give them a small lace to attach to.
I do not know the specifics on H. hippopus so I can't be of more specific help on that.

As far as LPS and high flow. They have no problems in a high flow environment, you just don't want a jet of water blasting their tissue away. Our tank with 17x turnover has hammers, frogspawns, brains and scolymias. Just place them in the correct areas of the tank and they will be very happy. Granted our tank isn't a super high flow sps tank, but it is more than the old standard of 10x.
Lobos, and trachyphillas may not enjoy the barebottom condtions too much, I think they may enjoy sitting solidly in the substrate or in the rockwork a bit more. Cyanirina or Scolymia may adapt a bit better to being sat flat on a bare bottom tank. (Just my opinion)
I'm still working on setting my bare bottom tank, and will be sure to try some LPS on the bottom and will let you know how that turns out.
Mike

tommyp · 01-28-2004, 09:26 PM

Great info! thanks for the post mike keep me/us posted

Tom

12-31-2003, 02:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	LPS and BB Hi all, Been reading all the BB/starboard threads and I am wondering what would be a good setup for LPS which I primarily have. I agree if you are running an sps tank the high turnover rates that keep all the detritus suspended, BB will work great. but what happens when you need less flow. I am sure that BB would be easier than a dsb for maintainence. But will a low flow make a bb tank less viable than a high flow bb tank? I would love to have a little bit of sand 1" or so but then it would trap detritus but I guess I could also replace sand a little at a time to make sure things don't build up. Thanks tommyp __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

12-31-2003, 03:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	I dont think it would be less viable due to less flow. The lack of a substrate on BB tanks allows for higher flow if wanted, but you dont have to run it that way. I would suggest that if going w/ lower flow for LPS, that you plan out your live rock configuration and map out your flow patterns and where areas of little to no flow will be that will collect detritus. This way you have a good idea of where to look for build up when it comes time to siphon. BB tanks simply make it easier to remove detritus from the tank. Thats the main concept behind them. HTH, Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

12-31-2003, 03:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	Thanks! I guess I was reading too much into the high flow rates needed to keep detrius suspended. I agree that maintance would be easier. now just to get the sand out. Is there any downside as far as buffering when you remove the sand? I have always read that the sand bed helps PH stability? __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

12-31-2003, 03:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Maxx Manta Ray Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: St Louis Mo Posts: 3,080 View Gallery Karma Komment	I'm sure it does to some degree, but if your tank is mature, you shouldnt be having PH instability problems anyway.... Nick __________________ "Chaos, confusion, despair...my work is done here." ...Some guy named Murphy.... A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!" Reef Sanctuary Knowledgebase (Answers to all your questions and then some!)

12-31-2003, 03:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	got ya No ph instability here but was just trying to cut through the "benifits" of sand Thanks Tom __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

12-31-2003, 03:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
ReefLady Tridacna maxima Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 4,590 View Gallery Karma Komment	Tom, AFAIK, the "benefits" of sand are purely dentrification and increased biodiversity. I personally think that the idea of a DSB adding stability to pH has been proved to be bunk -- along with the old thought that it would buffer ca/alk. In order for ca/alk to be buffered with aragonite sand, the pH would have to be so low as to harm everything in the tank. Speaking only from experience, bare bottom tanks were very popular many many years back. This was well before the increase in sps popularity (MH lighting was not common), and as such, for most hobbyists, flow rates of 10x plus were unheard of. As Nick said, simply arrange your rock to enable good flow throughout. You want to be able to siphon the bottom of the tank, as well as have it loosely stacked enough so that a quick run-through with a turkey baster will suspend a lot of detritus. Remember that as long as you don't overfeed, and have a decent cleanup crew, you shouldn't have an abundance of detritus. Also - it's not as if you don't have detritus in a DSB tank - it's just that you don't notice it as much because it appears as part of the substrate. HTH! __________________ ~ Teri -------- "You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice." ~(currently tankless)~ Our 180g sps tank / DIY adventure (taken down in late 2006): Our 180g DIY Reef Project ---What's next????

12-31-2003, 04:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	thanks teri! I am just coming to the realization that there are so many different types of tanks and ways to solve the export issues related to each. I think I am going to slowly remove my sand from my tank. I don't do any maintainence on it and I would rather see the nasties in my tank than hide them in the bed. I have a feeling that my cyano problems were due to the DSB because it trapped alot of the detritus from curing rock in the tank. My clowns are also making a mess of the sand as it is. I'll just have to keep an eye on the nitrates. Thanks Tom __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

12-31-2003, 05:01 PM	#8 (permalink)
jks1 Achilles Tang Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 876 View Gallery Karma Komment	I dont want to hijack this thread, but as Tommy said i think 1" of sand is more attractive than BB. How does everyone feel about shallow sand beds for asthetics? __________________ John Tank: 29g glass Pumps: Mag5.0 return - (3) rio 100 PHs Lighting: (1) 150w XM 10K/(2) 30W actinics Equipment: Aqua C Urchin skimmer- CPR Fuge, Titanium Heater -Red Sea wavemaster Pro Tank: 210g 1/2" Acrylic, dual overflows, 75g glass sump w/ 20g fuge. Pumps: Mag24 return - (2) MAG24s running 2 closed loop systems. Lighting: (3) 400w XM 10K/(2) Custom Sealife 96w PC - 25w dimmable incandescent Moonlight Equipment: Aqua C EV180 skimmer - CR500 calc reactor - Titanium Heater - AquaLogic single Stage Temp Controller - Aquanetics 1/5Hp Chiller - Neptune sys aquacontroller

12-31-2003, 05:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Tom just becareful of the slow removal my friend. the nasty stuff builds from the bottom up in the bed and now you are going to be removing from the top down, at some point in time your going to meet and it may not be a good thing. On your lps question, dont worry so much you can just make sure thier is no direct flow bouncing onto them. that what I do for my LPS Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-31-2003, 05:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	John thier is no dought that a bit of sand on the bottom looks good. I personally wish it didnt come with so many hang ups or I would do it myself. I can tell you that you BB wont be BB for long it gets covered with corraline in a hurry and thick. thier is also nothing stoping you from laying out some zoo's or ricordia also. I my new aquascape I made a few trenches and plan on dropping in a few clams to sit on the bottom. Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

12-31-2003, 06:53 PM	#11 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	Thanks mojo I am going to start to remove the sand that my clowns have turned into dunes. I figure that is strirred up enough not to cause problems. As far as the rest I am not sure what I am going to do. I don't want to pull everything out but I guess it might come to that in the future. Mojo will the clams be okay w/o sand? I have a hippopsis that I would hope to keep. Thanks Tom __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

12-31-2003, 08:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
mojoreef Just a reefer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,176 View Gallery Karma Komment	Sounds like a good plan tom. On the hippo question I would refer you to barryN from clamsdirect. He is a sponcer of the baord and has his own forum. Its been a long time since I kept a hippo, so I dont feel very comfortable about answering. But Barry has a good knowledge of all things clam. take care and happy new year Mike __________________ Make sure you check out The Fish Gallery The Coral Gallery The Equipment Gallery

01-28-2004, 08:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
mps9506 Totally back Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 8,525 View Gallery Karma Komment	This is a waaaay late reply to this thread. But I thought I'd throw in that we've had no problems keeping Croceas and maximas on barebottome tanks. I do like to place a flat old oyster shell or peice of base rock under them to support them and give them a small lace to attach to. I do not know the specifics on H. hippopus so I can't be of more specific help on that. As far as LPS and high flow. They have no problems in a high flow environment, you just don't want a jet of water blasting their tissue away. Our tank with 17x turnover has hammers, frogspawns, brains and scolymias. Just place them in the correct areas of the tank and they will be very happy. Granted our tank isn't a super high flow sps tank, but it is more than the old standard of 10x. Lobos, and trachyphillas may not enjoy the barebottom condtions too much, I think they may enjoy sitting solidly in the substrate or in the rockwork a bit more. Cyanirina or Scolymia may adapt a bit better to being sat flat on a bare bottom tank. (Just my opinion) I'm still working on setting my bare bottom tank, and will be sure to try some LPS on the bottom and will let you know how that turns out. Mike

01-28-2004, 09:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
tommyp Neon dottyback Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: VT Posts: 660 View Gallery Karma Komment	Great info! thanks for the post mike keep me/us posted Tom __________________ "I think that you can start the bombs of oceanrunner. They are good bombs for a rollback." 190g (60x30x25) upgrade in progress, 90g basement sump Check it out here!

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