Old Tank Syndrome

[Witfull]

OTS happens to long established tanks that suddenly and "without cause*" crash. many of these tanks are kept by dedicated hobbyists and has happend to "experts". many things have been blamed on OTS from long term low level electical current to heavy metal poisoning.

with our tanks we try to mimic nature, but this is in appearance only. we create the look of nature, but in truth the science is different. nature is an open system with billions of gallons of diluton, depths of miles and cold, and think mud/silt bottoms to lock cubic tons of toxins. creatures (many still unknown to man) that live and feed on these toxins.where we have a drop in the poverbial bucket in our homes. WE HAVE A CLOSED SYSTEM.

everything we put into our tanks literally stays there. many are bound in the matrix of living organisms or precipitated out of the water and bound in rock and substrate. but it doesnt stay there. sooner or later it wil leach back into the water column and then suddenly there are problems. this can appear in many forms. the most common and usually first is cynobacteria. but there can be other issues that go unseen for yrs,,,internal damage to our fish' anatomy, ie liver damage, gill deteriation, tumors.

so what do we do?

chime in folks~

[Woodstock]

Exportation and dilution! Good skimming, carbon usage, removing ditritus/organics, and regular (with occasional large) water changes will do a great job at keeping our reef systems healthy. Keeping your substrate healthy is important also. Depending on what type you have, you should keep it clean via vacuuming/stirring.

[jimeluiz]

Our tank is just 2.5 years old so I'm hoping OTS is still out in our future (not hoping it is coming, but hoping it is not here yet!) We followed the thinking at the time and installed a deep sand bed - which we love the look of, but have a growing sense of doom about.

I have definitely seen a drop off in the pure vibrancy of the system. While our parameters have been remarkably consistent and on target from the beginning (knock wood) the corals have gone from thriving to maintaining. We still have growth, but it is just not the same as it was a year ago. Thinks look healthy, just not as happy.

I'm attacking flow. I've replaced our powerhead (which was beautifully, but troublesomly covered completely in corraline) and now I'm going to replace the tubing that goes from our return pump to the tank (which has a good -sic - layer of slime on the inside deterring flow.) The pump is rated to 800 gph (less the rise) for our 58 gal tank.

Having read all the cautions about the inevitable detritus build up in our dsb, in spite of a heathy (I think) population of critters within, I have taken to more robust vaccuming and not returning the sand caught in the process to the tank (VERY SLOW removal of the sand) ;-)

We run carbon with some regularity and I have just begun a period of phosban use.

I'll be interested to read more here about other preventative measures that both stay the onset of OTS as well as create the most vibrant environment for our tank inhabitants.

[Witfull]

any thoughts of rotating base rocks out and cooking them to allow exporting of locked in chemicals/elements?

[jimeluiz]

I know (or at least I'm learning) that that may be the way to go, eventually. but just the thought of tearing everything up sends me running the other way. Our rocks are huge. I could maybe remove two without a total tear down. Even then -- sigh -- this is one task I'm leaving for another day/month/year.

I guess if other approaches do not bring the desired results I will start wrapping my head around removing those two rocks...

Thanks coach.

[Vanquish]

Gosh... its a scary thought... how about regular water changes and changing the sandbed??

[Witfull]

ahh thank you vanquish, this is another point i was going to bring up. sand beds are sinks. they trap and lock all kinds of nasties, PO4, heavy metals, decompsing matter in all stages of breakdown, acids and more. as the sink fills up,,,it has to go somewhere. in nature as i mentioned earlier, vast dilution and an entirely different ecosystem. in our tanks it hits the bottom and has no where to go but up. so what to do,,,what to do?

[Rougiem]

Great points everyone! I agree witty...this thread just affirms my thinking and my understanding of the ocean. Just to let you know....I am going to do an experiment with my new 55 gallon...Rock and sand changes....I will keep a log on my thread and keep everyone posted...One idea would be to certainly save the rock and have some that has been baked on hand...and maybe recycle it...maybe just sections of the tank at a time - sand and the rock...perhaps I can get some answers...

My question to you and anyone else...ideas on when to change it out and replace it? Not something to be done very often I think...once again here is a case where I will attempt to simulate nature.

Cheers!

[Witfull]

ok,,,so we have the options of swapping rock out and replacing sand as possible preventitive measures to aleaviate OTS.

now, the major questions,,,,does this need to be done? will it help? if so, how does one do it?

daunting questions to say the least. and to tell the truth, no definative studies have been done. in our hobby, about all we have are specific studies on effects of compounds, and antecdotal accounts of other hobbyists attempts to answer the myiad of questions we have.

so lets take a hypothetical wander in this great unknown. of these options, whats practical, managable, and what would the average hobbyist be willing to do.

[cheeks69]

I think the question that needs to be asked is What is OTS ?
AFA swapping the rock out well if there's a severe algea problem because there's an cumulation of detritus then by all means cook or boil the rocks. If the SB has become saturated with PO4 which will probably inhibit calcification of your corals then by all means replace it ! DOn't wait until your corals start dieing to do something.

[cheeks69]

Also AFA heavy metals are concerned I'm not worried.

RICHARD HARKER:

we showed that an ICP scan analysis of natural coral reef waters found that heavy metal concentrations in the collected water were considerably higher than published seawater data. (Harker 2004) More significantly, the analysis found levels of heavy metals in coral reef water to be very similar to the levels of metals in my own reef tanks and only slightly lower than those reported earlier for reef tanks. Perhaps natural coral reef seawater has elevated metal levels compared to the open ocean. Perhaps the complex nature of seawater prevents an ICP scan from providing an accurate view of metal content of seawater. In either case, we have insufficient evidence to conclude that reef tanks have elevated heavy metal levels. We therefore have to reject the first element of the author's proposed hypothesis, that the average reef tank has concentrations of heavy metals much higher than those found in natural seawater....
....As a rule the toxic ionic proportion of a metal in seawater is generally low. Most heavy metals in seawater are organically or inorganically bound, and are therefore non-toxic. Depending on the study, ionic metals can range from 20-30% of total dissolved metals. That means that 70-80% of the concentration of heavy metals in seawater is not in a form that is toxic to reef tank inhabitants. That does not mean the metals are rendered permanently non-toxic, only that at the time of analysis, they were non-toxic. Any hobbyist who has dosed a tank with copper in an effort to rid fish of parasites has experienced this effect first hand. It is very difficult to maintain a constant level of ionic copper in a tank, particularly if the tank has sand or live rock. While the level of total copper remains unchanged, testing for copper will show that levels are declining. Hobbyist copper tests measure ionic copper. As copper complexes with organic compounds and is sorbed onto calcium carbonate, the proportion of ionic copper declines as does the toxicity of the copper. That is the case with all metals that enter a reef tank.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...4/feature3.htm

[mps9506]

Originally Posted by cheeks69

I think the question that needs to be asked is What is OTS ?
AFA swapping the rock out well if there's a severe algea problem because there's an cumulation of detritus then by all means cook or boil the rocks. If the SB has become saturated with PO4 which will probably inhibit calcification of your corals then by all means replace it ! DOn't wait until your corals start dieing to do something.

I also have to ask how many people actually experience OTS? I have seen plenty of tanks that are over 10 or 15 years old with no problems without cooking rocks, without bare bottoms, without deep sand beds (Not nec. everything I stated).
I have also seen people with tanks that are 7 or 8 years old suddenly crash and they blame OTS? Is that a proper conclusion? Probably not. As cheeks asked, what is OTS? Then what causes it...

[forestal]

Julian Sprung gave good lecture at IMAC (or macna) last about OTS, interesting...haven't seen an article on it tho

i redid my tank after that lecture with idea of a stable long term tank..
i am only in SW for 2.5 years now, so i am a super newbie.

the sand bed if maintained may not need swapping out if the diversity of the critters is kept up...

there are prob. multiple factors, agree with Cheeks...addressing problems as they occur and keep up on maintenaance...

i am more following and hopefully the experts will figure this out so we can know wht to check and fix

[Cougra]

I have to question whether there is even such a thing as old tank syndrome. I don't believe that it's possible for a properly cared for tank to crash without reason. I know that people talk about sand beds filling up with mulm over time or rocks becoming sink holes for detritus but I think that has to do with the "set it and forget it" mentality that people seem to have when setting up a saltwater tank.
People rely on the "clean up crew" to remove and process everything from the algae on the glass to the fish waste constantly being produced and the food that lands on the bottom of the tank. However the term "clean up crew" is extremely misleading since it's not really cleaning the tank so much as it's recycling the organics in the tank. Because of this people neglect the need for mechanical filtration, and regular removal of detritus by other means then solely relying on a protein skimmer and water changes.
There has been some improvement because people realise there there is some sort of fundamental flaw with the way substrates are treated and the current trend to move towards a BB tank allows people to see exactly how much detritus is produced in a tank and physically remove it. I believe the same results can be achieved in tanks with a substrate provided people understand that substrates do need to be cared for and not rely solely on the animals that burrow through it to keep it "clean".

I have had issues with my tank after it was running for 4 years, symptoms of what people would possibly consider old tank syndrome, ie hair algae, corals weren't opening properly, fish were lethargic etc. However, their was a root cause to all of this. It wasn't because I was using CC for my substrate, or that my rocks were too old, or that my animals suddenly became ill. These problems resulted from neglecting the tank due to bordom with the tank and other stressors in my life at the time.

I'll be willing to bet that if you asked anyone who had "old tank syndrome" about how their tank was set up and what their maintenance routine was you'll find that there tank wasn't properly cared for.

[Witfull]

I have noticed a bit of pendulum swinging lately regarding substrate use. FWIW I still like sandbeds used as biological filters. The one point that Dr. Mathews missed (and it is just a brief mention in the margin in TRA3) is that biological filtration in sandbeds is not just nitrogen cycle management. It also involves the destruction (by microorganisms, including bacteria) of toxic substances produced as chemical warfare by various corals, other invertebrates, plants, and bacteria. This function is what helps PREVENT old tank syndrome. It is the failure of this function (when the sandbed becomes plugged up) that leads to problems. Ah yes, I know you are waiting for that article- coming soon!

Julian Sprung

Julian discussed this at IMAC 2005. unfortunately i ddint attend. hopefully i will be able to talk to him about this at MACNA. (or possibly sooner)

in other conversations with reefers, they have been doing what they always have, but have seen a "decline" in their tanks.

thoughts, DSB care, build up of mulm deep in the bed slowly preventing biological processes. loss of varied micro organisms. clogged rock with mulm.

i think it is possible that OTS is not triggered by any one thing. but multiple factors that in the right condititions cause OTS. you cannot deny that PO4 gets bound in rocks, and it can leach back into the system. water can test perfect yet, problems occur.

anyone who has "cooked" LR has seen the amount of mulm and diterus thats shed. having had BB tanks for many yrs i know my rocks would shed, but when cooking the amount is far more than than normal sloughing.

DSB's are not the wonder tool they were originally made to be, they need attention. and i would hypothisize that sands need a vigorous cleaning as well. this may not be easily accomplish and partial sand replacement may be the better option. systematically removing a fraction of the bed and adding new to that area, then move on to a new section at a later date.