Confused on starting a Nano

[KodiakBear]

I'm looking to convert my little 10 gal standard tank into a nano. It has been cycled for a while now, even to the point of being neglected altogether for over a month. Trying to get serious about it now! Eventually I'd like it to house some small SPS and LPS specimens. Any chance I could get away with a pair of clowns in such a small tank? Even just one clown?
First problem: The light needs to be replaced Right now it's just a 28W PC 6500K that I put on when I was using it as a hospital tank (very cheap mod to the freshwater light fixture from PetLand). I'm having trouble finding a VHO or PC bulb that will have enough output, yet fit over a tank that's only 20 inches long! Any suggestions?
Second problem: LiveAquaria doesn't seem to have hardly any cleanup crews in stock right now! I read on another thread in this forum that I should have nerite, nassarius, and margarita snails. Any suggestions for how many of each? Anything else I should put in the cleanup crew? Any recommendations for where to buy other than liveaquaria?
Third problem: How should I manage flow? Right now I have an old canister filter with nothing but mechanical filtration and charcoal in it (trying to avoid the nitrate problems these are famous for). Should I split the return line into multiple outlets, or scrap the canister altogether?
Finally: What is a good protein skimmer for such a small system? I'd like it to be as inconspicuous as possible.

Hopefully you all remembered to look away from the computer and rest your eyes somewhere in the middle of all that. Otherwise, send me the bill for the headache medicine . Thanks in advance for the help!

[prow]

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

Any chance I could get away with a pair of clowns in such a small tank? Even just one clown?

avoid the bigger clowns, a pair of perculas or maybe skunks would work.

First problem: The light needs to be replaced Right now it's just a 28W PC 6500K that I put on when I was using it as a hospital tank (very cheap mod to the freshwater light fixture from PetLand). I'm having trouble finding a VHO or PC bulb that will have enough output, yet fit over a tank that's only 20 inches long! Any suggestions?

the 28watt PC's should be good, i would just get a few and stagger them.

Second problem: LiveAquaria doesn't seem to have hardly any cleanup crews in stock right now!

check some of the sponsers here they are good rebuttable vendors.

I read on another thread in this forum that I should have nerite, nassarius, and margarita snails. Any suggestions for how many of each? Anything else I should put in the cleanup crew? Any

i would not put any nassarius snails in that small of a tank, they will starve. here is what i suggest for a CC.
5-nerite snails
5-cerith snails
3-trochus snails
3-margarita snails
if you like i think a tiger serpant star will work, might have to feed it once a week though. not the brittle stars, serpants. brittle stars have many hard spikes on there legs, serpants each arm looks more like a bristle worm.

recommendations for where to buy other than liveaquaria?

sponsors

Third problem: How should I manage flow? Right now I have an old canister filter with nothing but mechanical filtration and charcoal in it (trying to avoid the nitrate problems these are famous for). Should I split the return line into multiple outlets, or scrap the canister altogether?

ditch it. a cpr type refugium thingy or just a aquaclear hang on filter, use LR and you got a refugium and/or to hold your media in, like carbon. add a couple powerheads face them at each other on oppisite sides of the tank, all flow should be say around 200gph.

Finally: What is a good protein skimmer for such a small system? I'd like it to be as inconspicuous as possible.

with no sump dont think you need one. with this small of a system and only a couple fish a simple water would easy and cheap enough.

[Hypertek99]

You can get away with a pair of Ocellaris clowns. I had 2 in there no problems. As for light if you want to keep SPS you will have to upgrade to T5's or Metal Halides. LPS will do fine under those as well but don't need as much lights as the SPS. But in such a small tank i would go either just LPS or SPS as both require very different flow. SPS likes a lot of flow and LPS don't like that much. I would add a powerhead or 2 to get more flow Maxijet and Tunze are good. If you are going to keep SPS then you will need a skimmer but it will be hard to hide in a small system unless you have a sump or a refugium. If you are going LPS you won't need a skimmer. Actually there are a lot of nano keepers out there that are skimmerless. I'm one of them.

[dobejazz]

If you want MH for a 20" wide tank look at the current sunpod fixtures.

I agree with prow no skimmer is needed on a 10 gallon regular water changes will be more than adequate.

For my 5.5 gallon I use a HOB filter empty for flow it seems to work really well and doesn't take up valuable real estate in a nano

[BigAl07]

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

I'm looking to convert my little 10 gal standard tank into a nano. It has been cycled for a while now, even to the point of being neglected altogether for over a month. Trying to get serious about it now! Eventually I'd like it to house some small SPS and LPS specimens. Any chance I could get away with a pair of clowns in such a small tank? Even just one clown?

that's how I started in SW and it "evolved" into a full blown REEF tank. So I know where you're coming from and also know where you're headed. Let me help you to NOT encounter some of the headaches I have had. Really try to focus more on LPS as they are less light demanding and easier to care for. With such a small water volume you need all the help you can get. Just so you know, I'm about to "respectfully" disagree with some of my fellow posters above due to experience and currently running this exact set-up.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

Any chance I could get away with a pair of clowns in such a small tank? Even just one clown?

I would opt for MAYBE one clown and a Neon Goby or two. Keep your bio-load light and you'll be WAY ahead of the game here.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

First problem: The light needs to be replaced Right now it's just a 28W PC 6500K that I put on when I was using it as a hospital tank (very cheap mod to the freshwater light fixture from PetLand). I'm having trouble finding a VHO or PC bulb that will have enough output, yet fit over a tank that's only 20 inches long! Any suggestions?

I'll tell you how I did it.. I bought THREE different light fixtures in an effort to enhance my reef tank. I finally opted for a light fixture that wasn't exactly "Designed" for my tank but provides amazing light and growth at a reasonable price. I got the 130w Coralife 24" fixture. Yes it's 24" but with all fixtures the bulbs don't go to the end of the fixture so with a 24" fixture I got 21" bulbs which totally illuminate my entire tank end to end. PM me for exact details but I also opted for the "Rotating" legs for this for ease of feeding etc. I have great coral growth throughout my tank.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

Second problem: LiveAquaria doesn't seem to have hardly any cleanup crews in stock right now! I read on another thread in this forum that I should have nerite, nassarius, and margarita snails. Any suggestions for how many of each? Anything else I should put in the cleanup crew? Any recommendations for where to buy other than liveaquaria?

Yes sponsors here at RS! I haven't gotten anything from them but ReefScavengers has had some GREAT CUC packages and pricing.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

Third problem: How should I manage flow? Right now I have an old canister filter with nothing but mechanical filtration and charcoal in it (trying to avoid the nitrate problems these are famous for). Should I split the return line into multiple outlets, or scrap the canister altogether?
Finally: What is a good protein skimmer for such a small system? I'd like it to be as inconspicuous as possible.

I am very intriqued about the new Hydor Koralia Nano pump (see AQTJAK about getting them.. he's a dealer). I plan to add one to mine as SOON as they come in.

As for filters and skimmers if I were doing it over I would get one of these. AquaFuge PS Refugium but I don't think it will fit on a 20" tank. Maybe get one of these Reef Aquarium Filtration: Supplementary filtration for reef aquariums to go in a stand or something or get Reef Aquarium Filtration: AquaFuge External Hang-On Refugium ( I have a knock of off this one and LOVE it ) and figure how to ADD a skimmer. Contrary to what has been said you DO need a skimmer. Water changes only go a small way to removing DOC's in your water column because they float to the surface and hamper your water to air gas exchange. You NEED a skimmer.

Good luck and if you have any questions please don't hesitate to post back or PM me

Allen

[KodiakBear]

Thanks for all the help folks!
For fish, I think I am going ahead with two percs. I don't understand how two neon gobys differ from one small perc. I'm not running out and buying the clowns any time in the immediate future, so please let me know your thoughts Al? I know that percs will get larger as adults, but I've still got my 55 gal that I could transplant them to (only have 3 inches worth of fish in it right now anyway). I've read in a couple places that clowns tend to do best when introduced in pairs and that individual clowns are much more difficult to keep. Any opinions on this?
I checked up on ReefScavengers for a nano CUC, but their package has nassarius snails and two varieties of hermits (blue and white legged). I suppose I could do a custom CUC order such as what Prow suggested. That mix does sound pretty good.
If I need get rid of my canister filter (which seems to be the consensus here) I think I will try my hand at building my own HOB fuge. I might even try to make a protein skimmer as part of it like the first link BigAl gave me. My acrylic skills aren't excellent, but since it will be on the back of the tank it won't have to be pretty, just functional and leak-free! Does anyone have any design plans for a nano sized protein skimmer? I found a bunch of sites for DIY HUGE protein skimmers, but nothing that put it down to nano scale.
I checked the sunpod fixtures, and they are VERY nice! I'm a little dissapointed that what they advertise as their 20" model is actually 21 inches long! I think I am going to build a stand/canopy for this tank, so I am going to need a retrofit kit which puts the sunpaq retrofit kit on my wish list. This is 80W dual daylight and dual actinic PC. 8W/gal should be enough for just about anything, right? If not, I can get some DIY 14W LED grow lights pretty cheap to supplement.
As for mixing LPS and SPS... I was a little nervous about it to begin with. All the LPS my wife likes (since this tank is for her anyhow) tend to be aggressive and have sweeper tentacles (most of her likes lean toward euphyllia sp), which would make SPS real estate a pricey comodity in such a small tank. So now the decision has to be made of going euph only, or sps only...
In any case, the tank is cycled, I'd like to get a CUC soon, but it will be months yet before I have it fully stocked. Just keep telling myself, go slow... VERY slow. Plus, it gives me an excuse to use all the fun toys (aka power tools) I have in my garage!
Again, thanks for the help so far, I'm sure I will have dozens upon dozens of questions once this really gets off and running!

[lcstorc]

Sounds like things are coming along nicely. I don't have any DIY info for you but I do have an opinion on the clown question. If you want a pair then get them at the same time. A single clown is fine but adding a second to one that is established can be very challenging and often ends in the death of the new clown. Of course it depends on the type of clown (maroons are the worst) and event the individual clown itself but in general that is the best way to successfully have a pair if you want.

[Craig Manoukian]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

A single clown is fine but adding a second to one that is established can be very challenging and often ends in the death of the new clown. Of course it depends on the type of clown (maroons are the worst) and event the individual clown itself but in general that is the best way to successfully have a pair if you want.

It is the size difference between the clowns that matters most with pairs. Clowns are hermaphrodtic, sexless, until put in the right relationship. A noticably smaller clown will be submissive and become male, while the larger clown will be dominant and become female.

I had a Gold Barred Maroon Clown 3" in length in my 20 gallon. I introduced a 1" Gold Barred Maroon and the two paired up with a fascinating shimmy dance immediately. The larger female accepted the smaller male with no aggressive display. HTH

[BigAl07]

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

Thanks for all the help folks!
For fish, I think I am going ahead with two percs. I don't understand how two neon gobys differ from one small perc. I'm not running out and buying the clowns any time in the immediate future, so please let me know your thoughts Al? I know that percs will get larger as adults, but I've still got my 55 gal that I could transplant them to (only have 3 inches worth of fish in it right now anyway). I've read in a couple places that clowns tend to do best when introduced in pairs and that individual clowns are much more difficult to keep. Any opinions on this?

One thing about fish stocking and limits is "body mass". This is where the "rule of thumb" gets kind of fuzzy. Yes we use the "inch" rule but at times we need to take body size and thickness into account. Look at the clown (damsel-fish) body shape. A 2" clown is also a rather thick fish which means it has more "square footage" of fish when compared to a neon goby, pipe-fish and several other slender fish. That's how it differs. Neon gobies are VERY slender fish in all respects and they add very little to a bio-load. I wouldn't totallly "exclude" them from a bio-load but in my experience I "calculate" them very LOW.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

I checked up on ReefScavengers for a nano CUC, but their package has nassarius snails and two varieties of hermits (blue and white legged). I suppose I could do a custom CUC order such as what Prow suggested. That mix does sound pretty good.

I think you' on the right path there. Sounds great to me.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

If I need get rid of my canister filter (which seems to be the consensus here) I think I will try my hand at building my own HOB fuge. I might even try to make a protein skimmer as part of it like the first link BigAl gave me. My acrylic skills aren't excellent, but since it will be on the back of the tank it won't have to be pretty, just functional and leak-free! Does anyone have any design plans for a nano sized protein skimmer? I found a bunch of sites for DIY HUGE protein skimmers, but nothing that put it down to nano scale.

Doing a DIY HOB Fuge is a GREAT idea. I think mine is one of the BEST things I've done for my 10g tank. I noticed an almost immediate improvement in water quality and it also looks cool with all the varied critters growing in there. Keep us posted

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

As for mixing LPS and SPS... I was a little nervous about it to begin with. All the LPS my wife likes (since this tank is for her anyhow) tend to be aggressive and have sweeper tentacles (most of her likes lean toward euphyllia sp), which would make SPS real estate a pricey comodity in such a small tank. So now the decision has to be made of going euph only, or sps only...

I LOVE my "euphies" (your wife has good taste) and wouldn't want a tank without them. Yes they do have "Sweeper" tentacles but they are well worth the efforts. They add a LOT to the reef tank and are not hard to keep at all. Just be careful handling them and give them a little bit of extra room when placing. I have them close to mushrooms, Zoas and Xenia. I just give them some extra "arm room". It's worth the precautions as they do add a lot to the tank.

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

In any case, the tank is cycled, I'd like to get a CUC soon, but it will be months yet before I have it fully stocked. Just keep telling myself, go slow... VERY slow. Plus, it gives me an excuse to use all the fun toys (aka power tools) I have in my garage!
Again, thanks for the help so far, I'm sure I will have dozens upon dozens of questions once this really gets off and running!

I LOVE power took (toys). Just keep taking your time and research. The more you know ahead of time the better off your reef tank and everyone else will be.

Take pictures an start your own tank chronicle so we can all watch it grow and you can look back on your progress later and REALLY appreciate where it started from. I would bet as you get into it your ideas will progress and your tank will go in several different directions as you learn and understand more. It's the journey that's the beauty of this rather than the end of it. Enjoy!!

Allen

[Craig Manoukian]

I kept just the pair of Maroons in my 20 gallon for minimal bioload reasons.

[KodiakBear]

Craig~ I've actually been looking into getting a pair of maroons for my 55 gal reef. They are my wife's favorite fish. Very pretty, very aggressive, etc. etc. Right now, all I have in that tank are a pair of yellow-tailed damsels. Still debating on whether I want to get those little buggers out before introducing the clowns.

Al~ Did you build your own HOB? Do you have the plans for it? I've got a few ideas already, but haven't put anything on paper yet. Would love to see how you did yours. Your explanation on size of fish reminds me of something I read on the "OTHER" reef forum where it described inch of fish as cubic inches instead of linear inches. I don't know so much about my wife having good taste. After all, she did marry me! Seriously though, the Euphies are really cool, I love the hammer I have in my 55gal. Been thinking about getting a torch to go next to it.
Power tools are great! Just taught my wife how to use the table saw and compound miter saw a couple days ago when I was finishing up my hardwood floors. I don't think she is going to let me use my miter saw ever again. She thinks that's the best tool in the shop!

Once I really get rolling on this, I'll be sure to make a chronicle. Projected release date: Feb '08

[flricordia]

Originally Posted by KodiakBear

I'm looking to convert my little 10 gal standard tank into a nano. It has been cycled for a while now, even to the point of being neglected altogether for over a month. Trying to get serious about it now! Eventually I'd like it to house some small SPS and LPS specimens. Any chance I could get away with a pair of clowns in such a small tank? Even just one clown?
First problem: The light needs to be replaced Right now it's just a 28W PC 6500K that I put on when I was using it as a hospital tank (very cheap mod to the freshwater light fixture from PetLand). I'm having trouble finding a VHO or PC bulb that will have enough output, yet fit over a tank that's only 20 inches long! Any suggestions?
Second problem: LiveAquaria doesn't seem to have hardly any cleanup crews in stock right now! I read on another thread in this forum that I should have nerite, nassarius, and margarita snails. Any suggestions for how many of each? Anything else I should put in the cleanup crew? Any recommendations for where to buy other than liveaquaria?
Third problem: How should I manage flow? Right now I have an old canister filter with nothing but mechanical filtration and charcoal in it (trying to avoid the nitrate problems these are famous for). Should I split the return line into multiple outlets, or scrap the canister altogether?
Finally: What is a good protein skimmer for such a small system? I'd like it to be as inconspicuous as possible.

Hopefully you all remembered to look away from the computer and rest your eyes somewhere in the middle of all that. Otherwise, send me the bill for the headache medicine . Thanks in advance for the help!

JMO but for a small tank you really don't need a big clean-up crew. The more waste producers you have the more you are going to be fighting high organics. I have gotten by with just 2 small elephant snails to keep the DSB stirred. You should learn to rely on tank maintainance and the natural biological organic removal process for a nano like LR and maybe a fuge. Unless you are having unwanted algae problems a tank clean-up crew really isn't needed. And if you are having unwanted algae problems then it is best to find out what is that is causeing excess diatoms or excess hair growth and solve it by maintainance. So many times i have seen peolpe dump tons of turbo, astrea snails and hermits into their tank to try and 'clean it up'. And in the end the snails are either dieing off, the hermit killing them for larger homes and the algae even growing on their shells.
Try to keep the tank clean running through your own maintainance with a strict schedule to follow.

[PEMfish]

Ok, everyone has spoken good word, but I`ll speak my mind too. Based on experience a dozen snails total with no margaritas ( don`t do much of anything ) and half a dozen hermit crabs are the best clean up crew. Like they said with the fish volume, not length, a pair of clowns would be fine. So would one. Could add a goby or even damsel with it ( witch is my setup, a clown and damsel ). Just add a shrimp and enjoy. Far as protein skimmers, you do need one and there is no good ones on the market for your tank size. PM me for My DIY protein skimmer plans. Lighting: PCs would be perfect. Maybe in the 45-65 watt range. I use an Aquaclear and the return from my protein skimmer for flow, works great. I also have a 15w light that runs 2 hours before/after main lights on in the morinig.

[StoneEssence]

Ahck my tank is being discussed without me!! How did that happen?
Interesting points everyone. Basically we had a QT tank that wasn't being used and let's face it ... they're not hard to set up if I need another one. And I'm not overly concerned about my damsels. I think they will outlive me. I've already chiseled some rocks, about 11 pounds worth, we had two large rocks kinda sitting around serving no real purpose. I'll see if I can get some good pics posted on here.
I think for my first nano I'll reign my dear hubby in and just do rics and some euphies. Can't decide on frogspawn or torch, we already have a nice hammer in the 55g. Oh and I bought a sun coral for it, but it will go in the 55 until my tank is ready. Jubilation! ... I'm off to take pics.

[Craig Manoukian]

Originally Posted by StoneEssence

I'm off to take pics.

Can't wait to see 'em!