Best ways to control algae in tanks without CUC's

[Lee]

After an ich infestation courtesy of my LFS that killed off 5 out of 10 fish, I'm thinking of going in a new direction with my tank. Instead of doing a full blown reef, I'm considering getting some more aggressive, non-reef safe fish. I bought a CUC with over 300 snails, but they are doing a **** job. I'm guessing most of them are dead. I use a marine algaecide, Phos-X, and occasional treatments for cyano, but I still have constant algae problems. My question is, in a tank that is not safe for inverts like snails and crabs, what are the best ways for managing algae?

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates <10ppm
Phosphates (don't have test)

-RODI water
-giant Reef Octopus Diablo skimmer
-125 gallon display, 30 gallon sump
-currently an empty fuge

Fish: Yellow Tang, large Hippo tang, 2 firefish, 1 6-line wrasse

Feeding: 1 frozen cube per day (Mysis, brine, krill, etc). Seaweed ~5 times per week

Lighting: ~90 3-watt Luxeon LED's running from about 1pm - 1am

Water flow: 2 large powerheads, one on either side, plus the sump returns

[DaveK]

This comes down to what you want to keep in the way of corals and clams. Both of these require large amounts of light.

If you are not going to keep corals or clams, the easiest way to control algae is to greatly reduce the light. Fish only need enough to see to eat their food.

If you are going to keep corals or clams, your going to need to do a lot more work. In this case, you must control nitrates and phosphates. In other words, you must remove them, one way or another at a rate greater than they enter the system.

Here are possible sources of nitrates and phosphates -

Feeding, especially flake food and not rinsing frozen foods before feeding.
Using tap water to mix salt. Always use RO/DI water for this.
"Dirt traps" and "nitrate factories" in the system.
Low quality carbon can leach nutrients.
Low quality salt can sometimes add nutrients. This is unusual today.

Here are possible ways to remove nitrates and phosphates -

Water changes. Change 1/2 the water and you reduce the nutrients by 1/2.
Skimming. Remove the waste products before the biological filtration need to break then down.
Nitrate and phosphate removal products.
Deep sand beds.
Refugiums.
Algae Scrubbers.

Each of these has advantages and disadvantages. Most people that control algae well use many of the above methods.

There are also other items that can effect algae growth rates.

Good clean up crew.
Other livestock that eats algae.
Low general water quality, especially when the readings are off.
Lighting, sometimes you can reduce it, especially in FO or FOWLR systems.
Old light bulbs. Colors change as they age and this can be a factor.
Water flow. More flow will often help keep algae down.
Manual removal. Very important, especially when there is a big problem.


Generally I consider it a mistake to use algaecides or cyano treatments. While they might kill the one problem algae, unless you fix the underlying problems, you will simply get regrowth of another unwanted algae.

[Blue Space]

+1^ I think he said it all.

[ReefFrenzy]

+1 to all Dave said.....

As a direct recommendation to the OP, I have had very good success running a dual chamber GFO/Carbon reactor on FOWLR systems. My sand stays pearl white and algae has been non-existent. Bulk Reef Supply makes some great products that can help you stay ahead of the problem before you need to try an emegency chemical treatment which is a band aid.

Larry

[Lee]

This comes down to what you want to keep in the way of corals and clams. Both of these require large amounts of light.

If you are not going to keep corals or clams, the easiest way to control algae is to greatly reduce the light. Fish only need enough to see to eat their food.

If you are going to keep corals or clams, your going to need to do a lot more work. In this case, you must control nitrates and phosphates. In other words, you must remove them, one way or another at a rate greater than they enter the system.

Here are possible sources of nitrates and phosphates -

Feeding, especially flake food and not rinsing frozen foods before feeding.
Using tap water to mix salt. Always use RO/DI water for this.
"Dirt traps" and "nitrate factories" in the system.
Low quality carbon can leach nutrients.
Low quality salt can sometimes add nutrients. This is unusual today.

Here are possible ways to remove nitrates and phosphates -

Water changes. Change 1/2 the water and you reduce the nutrients by 1/2.
Skimming. Remove the waste products before the biological filtration need to break then down.
Nitrate and phosphate removal products.
Deep sand beds.
Refugiums.
Algae Scrubbers.

Each of these has advantages and disadvantages. Most people that control algae well use many of the above methods.

There are also other items that can effect algae growth rates.

Good clean up crew.
Other livestock that eats algae.
Low general water quality, especially when the readings are off.
Lighting, sometimes you can reduce it, especially in FO or FOWLR systems.
Old light bulbs. Colors change as they age and this can be a factor.
Water flow. More flow will often help keep algae down.
Manual removal. Very important, especially when there is a big problem.


Generally I consider it a mistake to use algaecides or cyano treatments. While they might kill the one problem algae, unless you fix the underlying problems, you will simply get regrowth of another unwanted algae.

This is a excellent "textbook" response for dealing with algae, and I do appreciate the response. You clearly put a lot of time and thought into it. But I've had a reef tank for 7+ years, so I'm familiar with all of this, and I addressed most of this. My question was more specific to tanks that are NOT invert safe. I have always relied HEAVILY on snails and crabs to control algae. But CUC's don't last forever, and as their numbers dwindle, my algae growth always increases. So my question was, suppose you have an aggressive tank full of Triggers and such; fish that will EAT your clean up crews. I feel like algae control with no clean up crew is a daunting task, so I'm wondering what people focus on in the absence of a traditional clean up crew? Or do you just keep buying snails anyway, even though the fish will eat them??

-I use RODI water
-I have a giant, high quality skimmer
-I have a 300+ snail clean up crew
-I have super high quality LED lighting, so no "bulbs" to wear out
-lights are on 12 hours a day
-I feed one frozen cube per day
-I have nitrate levels less than 10ppm (probably <5ppm)
-I use PhosX phosphate remover

I did mention that my fuge is currently empty (because it leaks, but that can be fixed easily). Is there anything for a fuge that will help with Algae? I used to have Cheato in my fuge, which helped with the nitrate levels, but my nitrate levels are usually pretty low...

[Lee]

+1 to all Dave said.....

As a direct recommendation to the OP, I have had very good success running a dual chamber GFO/Carbon reactor on FOWLR systems. My sand stays pearl white and algae has been non-existent. Bulk Reef Supply makes some great products that can help you stay ahead of the problem before you need to try an emegency chemical treatment which is a band aid.

Larry

Thanks, I'll check into those. What is GFO? I know what GTFO is, but not GFO .

Any thoughts on ozone or UV?

[BigAl07]

Without a robust CUC you'll have to watch your "Nutrients" and stay on top of water changes. I think Dave's advice is spot on.

If you get the fuge up and running in may help by creating a more favorable growing area for the algae (more of a red light, slowly flow etc).

[ddelozier]

Algae is a Plant. There are 3 ways to kill a plant. Rob it of Food, Rob it of Light, or introduce something Toxic to the plant. Food for algae is the easiest. I personally dont use GFO in my aquariums, but i do run a Chaeto refugium. Nitrates/phosphates are only an issue when my wife feeds the fish. I run a monster skimmer(3x the rec volume of my tank) and i probably overfeed a bit, but my wife isnt satisfied the fish are fed till there is food sitting on the sand. Skimmer earns its keep, but i still end up doing 20% water changes a week. Skimmers chew up some phos/nitrates. Algae in fuge can get alot too. Reactor of gfo will get whats left if there is any. On my next tank, im doing a turf algae scrubber with a chaeto fuge.

There is the best answer i can give. IF you want "non reef safe" Fish in your tank, and crab/snails will be in danger, your only choices are:
A)change your mind
B)Increase measures to export nutrients, so algae cannot grow.

[reefer gladness]

But CUC's don't last forever

Maybe part of the issue there is the type of snail. I've found trochus snails breed successfully in the display tank with no assistance so long as water quality is good. At some point in the near future I'm going to have too many snails and will be selling them back to my LFS.

I just say 'no' to crabs, fun to observe until they start killing your snails.

[PSBoston]

I have been researching aggressive fish only tanks as well and I was wondering the same thing. One thing that some of the big tanks that I have looked at use are urchins instead of small snails and crabs since they have the spines for defense. Just an observation, also lots of folks have had success with bio-pellets that may help keep the nitrates lower.

Good luck and make sure to get some big Angels!

[Lee]

Without a robust CUC you'll have to watch your "Nutrients" and stay on top of water changes. I think Dave's advice is spot on.

If you get the fuge up and running in may help by creating a more favorable growing area for the algae (more of a red light, slowly flow etc).

I just picked up a 20 gallon tank and about 80lbs of sand that I'm going to drill out and turn into a fuge. Will probably go Cheato and some other stuff, so we'll see how that turns out.

I don't see how I could feed any less than 1 cube per day. The fish will turn into territorial jerks if I deprive them of food too much. So I need something that's going to consume these leftover nutrients.

[Lee]

Algae is a Plant. There are 3 ways to kill a plant. Rob it of Food, Rob it of Light, or introduce something Toxic to the plant. Food for algae is the easiest. I personally dont use GFO in my aquariums, but i do run a Chaeto refugium. Nitrates/phosphates are only an issue when my wife feeds the fish. I run a monster skimmer(3x the rec volume of my tank) and i probably overfeed a bit, but my wife isnt satisfied the fish are fed till there is food sitting on the sand. Skimmer earns its keep, but i still end up doing 20% water changes a week. Skimmers chew up some phos/nitrates. Algae in fuge can get alot too. Reactor of gfo will get whats left if there is any. On my next tank, im doing a turf algae scrubber with a chaeto fuge.

There is the best answer i can give. IF you want "non reef safe" Fish in your tank, and crab/snails will be in danger, your only choices are:
A)change your mind
B)Increase measures to export nutrients, so algae cannot grow.

I hear ya.

I was just at an LFS and they've got a 150 with MH lights that run from 9am - 9pm, they have NO clean up crew, a 20 gallon fuge, 30 gallon Mega Flow sump, and a UV sterilizer and there is not a spot of algae anywhere in the tank. So I know it can be done!

[BigAl07]

Yes it can be done... keep in mind that every system is unique in many ways. It could be one small difference that makes or breaks a tank. It could be what they feed... how they feed... or any number of other variables.

You may want to look into adding one of the new Santa Monica Upflow Algae Scrubbers. Each unit (once established) will help consume roughly the equivalent of 1/2 cube of food per day. I am running one now on one of my tanks and I've noticed a remarkable decrease in GHA. Here's a link
The new Upflow Algae Scrubbers (UAS) that you can Hang-On-Glass (HOG) are here...

[ReefFrenzy]

Having an aggressive tank with no algae can be done....I have a 180 with a Humu Trigger, 8" Puffer, Tuskfish and a few others. There is a video of it on my website's home page. I run a 55 gallon sump with a Bubble Magnus skimmer, a ton of LR, and a ball of Chaeto in the sump. I also run GFO and Carbon and a 57 watt UV unit at 170 GPH flow rate.

I perform a waterchange every 3-4 weeks and feed heavily, mainly our blend of Carnivore Cocktail, Nori and Hikari clams on half shell to trim the puffers beak. I keep the Mag level low so the coralline algae stays in check, because I like the white rock/ black background look. We have no algae to speak of and I clean my glass about once per month, no kidding.

There is an Urchin in this tank and zero snails. Someone else in the aquarium service field once explained to me that in a FOWRL tank, YOU are the clean up crew verses in a reef...LOL.

Larry

[Lee]

Maybe part of the issue there is the type of snail. I've found trochus snails breed successfully in the display tank with no assistance so long as water quality is good. At some point in the near future I'm going to have too many snails and will be selling them back to my LFS.

I just say 'no' to crabs, fun to observe until they start killing your snails.

Yeah, I'm not sure what happens; I think about half of them die before they get to my tank. The last CUC I ordered came with some interesting acclimation instructions, float the bag to temp and put them in. No drip acclimation. They had a good reason for it, but at least half of the snails are dead right where I dropped them.

Somehow a few hermit crabs snuck in the tank, and have probably killed off another 1/4, leaving me with not nearly enough. Plenty of shells though. I would never intentionally put crabs in the tank.