Cyanobacteria/water flow/filtration

[Cloudburst2000]

Hey all,

I'm trying to help my brother-in-law with his tank. They currently have a 50 or 55 gallon corner tank that is currently FOWLR, and it has rather large cyano problem. They would like to convert to a reef tank and have asked me to start doing their tank maintenance. And yes, they will be paying me. Anyhoo, part of the problem was an inadequate water change regiment and inadequate filtration. I have done a few large water changes alreadt, but until we get the filtration updated it's kinda lost cause. Anyhoo, I have a friend who is willing to give me a canister filter, but I know they can build up nitrates. Is there anyway to mod them so that they will work for a reef system? They don't have a drilled tank which is part of the problem, and they are limited in the amount of space behind the tank so no HOB fuges or anything. All they currently have is a small HOB filter that is woefully inadequate for their set-up. But I would be willing to hear other ideas of filtration ideas. I've knocked around the idea of moving their fish to my tank and just drilling their tank, but they have limited space in the stand for a sump since it is a corner unit.

I'm also not sure that they have adequate flow. They currently have only two nano Koralia powerheads in there. That is the same as I have in my 25 gallon tank which is, at least, half the size. What powerhead and gph would you suggest for a 55 gallon tank. I just have a hunch that there isn't enough flow around the rocks which is helping to allow the cyano to find good purchase on the rocks. Since we are updating the system, I would also be willing to look at wavemakers. So suggestions for replacement powerheads and wavemakers would be much appreciated.

I KNOW they have high nutrients, or else they wouldn't have so much cyano growth. The tests show only low amounts of nitrates and no phosphates, but the cyano is likely eating up the rest. Besides water changes, better filtration, are there other ways of lowering the nutrients? Let's see, I know they need a protien skimmer which is on my list of things to buy. I also checked out the thread for those algae scrubbers. I thought this might be an intersting addition to add to the new filtration and protien scrubber. Any other suggestions outside these to help control nutrients so I can put a stop to their cyano outbreak?

So I have covered problems with inadequate water changes, filtration, and possibly flow that might be helping to create their cyano problem. What are the other problems that I should be looking for and corresting...anything else that might be helping the cyano along? My main goal right now is to get the cyano problem under control. Any help there would be much appreciated.

[Jeremy0322]

The other things that can be looked out are things like bio load, amount of live rock, and the clean up crew, all of which can have an effect on nutrients in a big way. What type of lighting is being used, how old are the bulbs?

For flow in a 55 you probably want atleast 2500-3000 gph, that would be the minimum in my mind for a reef tank. I LOVE the HK powerheads, and they can put some decent flow, which will help alot.

With the canister filter you can use them for running media like activated carbon and phosban and things like that, but for an actual filtration role they are traps most of the time.

[Cloudburst2000]

Yes, I just expanded their CUC last week. They only had a small number of snails and crabs and one urchin. I got them a load of stuff from reefcleaners.org. Had John there suggest a custom CUC which is what we ordered. I can already see them making a dent in the problem. But they won't be enough by themselves.

They also have two either 20w or 24w bulbs that are fairly new. I think another part of the problem is that they are rated around 6500K which is probably not helping with the cyano growth. We are in the process of looking for a metal halide fixture that we like. I'm trying to convince my brother-in-law to leave this tank as a FOWLR since filtration is going to be the problem (tank not drilled, not enough room in stand for a good sump/fuge system) and just setting up a second tank as a reef tank. Then we could just set up a canister filter below this tank. Yes, they can harbor nitrates but that's not so much of a problem for a FOWLR as it would be for a reef tank. I still want to change his lights to something with a higher kelvin rating, but we won't need to go MH on this tank if he leaves it as FOWLR.

And in terms of bioload, he only has two fish right now. He has one yellow-tail damsel and one tomato clown. I want to get his filtration corrected and the cyano under control before letting him add anything else. His filtration just SUCKS!

[DaveK]

You seem to understand what needs to be done. In addition, the fish are most likely being overfed.

Also, consider the source of the water. Ideally, you should be using RO/DI for mixing SW.

You are correct, you will need to seriously upgrade the lighting, filtration and skimming. It will take awhile to see results, simply because the tank was allowed to get to this state.

If you go with a canister filter, and this is a possible option on a tank this size, make sure that you go with one that is very easy to clean. The mechanical sections of the filter should be cleaned weekly, and if the filter is hard to clean, this task will get neglected.

Good luck!

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by DaveK

You seem to understand what needs to be done. In addition, the fish are most likely being overfed.

Also, consider the source of the water. Ideally, you should be using RO/DI for mixing SW.

You are correct, you will need to seriously upgrade the lighting, filtration and skimming. It will take awhile to see results, simply because the tank was allowed to get to this state.

If you go with a canister filter, and this is a possible option on a tank this size, make sure that you go with one that is very easy to clean. The mechanical sections of the filter should be cleaned weekly, and if the filter is hard to clean, this task will get neglected.

Good luck!

Can you suggest a good canister filter that is easy to clean? I've never used canister filters since I have a reef tank. And yes, the one thing he has done right is use RO/DI water. He just didn't do water changes frequently enough or ever try to upgrade his filtration. And I will check on his feeding regiment. I know he still feeds flake food. I know both fish eat it fine, but is frozen food better than flake food? I only use frozen food in my tank, but I've never had any fish either. And since I've never had any fish, how often should he be feeding them, and about how much? I feed my shrimp/coral about every 2-3 days. Would it be about the same for fish?

[BigJay]

You do need to seriously upgrade the flow. As stated 2000-3000 in a 55g would be a pretty decent number to shoot for. Lighting thats a no brainer, more light and correct spectrum.
I'm gonna disagree a bit on one thing.Filteration... you do not need supplementary filteration. Use of live rock of 70-110 pounds for that tank should be your filteration. Keep the bioload as light as possible no more then 10" 's of adult size fish in that tank. Water changes 10% a week or 20% every 2 weeks. Light handed on feedings. If you want to use a canister filter I would use it just as a place to house carbon. The magnums have a decent carbon only canister. If you use any kind of filter your going to have to clean it every week and it becomes a serious PITA. And it may not really help and the constant messing with the bacteria load on the filter may do more harm.
If the tank is empty or correctly stocked but no corals .. getting the cyano under control should be fairly easy. If you can't , in no way should they move forward with a reef tank. What substrate are they using? If they have a larger substrate like crushed coral I can almost guarantee thats where your cyano fertilizer is and that would be the first thing for me to remove and put in a correct sand substrate.

[BigJay]

Originally Posted by Cloudburst2000

I know he still feeds flake food. I know both fish eat it fine, but is frozen food better than flake food? I only use frozen food in my tank, but I've never had any fish either. And since I've never had any fish, how often should he be feeding them, and about how much? I feed my shrimp/coral about every 2-3 days. Would it be about the same for fish?

it all depends on the fish. Certain fish do need to feed more often. I feed every other day @ 1x per day. All of the fish in my tank can be seen hunting for food on a regular basis wether its little bits of algae or copepods/amphipods etc.
Certain flake foods can be nasty. Most are made with dried fish meal and when it hits your tank anything uneatin readily mixes with the water. At least with frozen food if it gets into the rocks there are lots of life in your rock that will consume it. Allthough the ideal is to only put in the tank what goes directly into the fishes mouth.
Almost all corals can go without food. Feeding corals should be considered at 1x per week or 1x every 4th day. Feeding should be done only after the lights have been off for a while. A lot of corals won't expend the energy to put there feeding tentacles out unless food is already in the water column. At night when they are no longer receiving light for photosynthesis the energy to extend their tentacles becomes worthwhile. So in order to get a lot of corals to show a feeding response with the light on you have to pollute the water enough that the corals sense the presence of food in enough abundance that they feel they have more to gain by trying to feed rather then farm. Well as you can expect that really isn't good for the overall health of the tank.

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by Cloudburst2000

Can you suggest a good canister filter that is easy to clean? I've never used canister filters since I have a reef tank. And yes, the one thing he has done right is use RO/DI water. ...

If I was going to use a canister filter, one of the few brands I'd recommend is Eheim. Something like their Pro 3 would be fine. Note that these often come with media that is not quite correct for SW systems. Usually in a SW system, you use live rock for the bio-media, so this should be omitted from the canister. Use only mechanical media and chemical media in the canister, and be sure to clean it at least weekly.

Notice that the price of the filter is not inexpensive. This is because it's quality equipment, and built to last. Also, replacement parts are generally available. I recommend that you always get top quality equipment, since it will last and be least expensive long term.

[l3fty999]

I've been using the controversial vodka dosing method temporarily to get nitrates under control after backing off on feedings. I found that with proper research and adding some bubbles (temporarily, of course) and then backing off on feeding, the tank did pretty well. I now run my tank with no mechanical filtration at all, follow a good feeding routine, and test on a regular basis. When I did run a canister filter, it was the Fluval FX5 and all I had in it was just the sponge filters that came with it and carbon. But, here's a thought: if you have live rock rubble, couldn't you put that in some of the filter baskets and then you have a sump and filter canister in one? Just a thought. And I whole heartedly agree with Bigjay on feeding corals when the lights are out. I do that now myself and it's just with some led actinics on which, by the way, also has the benefit of some excellent photo opportunities...

Good luck!
Aaron

[BigJay]

the problem with rubble is it isn't large enough to have anaerobic areas to break down nitrates. So it acts basically like a bio ball. It collects lots of debris and after a while will act like a store for nitrates. Its the same problem with filter material. If you clean it often it negates the problem but then your constantly messing with the bacteria load of the tank. Thats why most consider the most effective method of filteration on a reef tank to be limited to a protein skimmer and/or algae and/or fuge. All methods pretty much impossible in a 55 where no sump or HOB possible.

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by BigJay

You do need to seriously upgrade the flow. As stated 2000-3000 in a 55g would be a pretty decent number to shoot for. Lighting thats a no brainer, more light and correct spectrum.
I'm gonna disagree a bit on one thing.Filteration... you do not need supplementary filteration. Use of live rock of 70-110 pounds for that tank should be your filteration. Keep the bioload as light as possible no more then 10" 's of adult size fish in that tank. Water changes 10% a week or 20% every 2 weeks. Light handed on feedings. If you want to use a canister filter I would use it just as a place to house carbon. The magnums have a decent carbon only canister. If you use any kind of filter your going to have to clean it every week and it becomes a serious PITA. And it may not really help and the constant messing with the bacteria load on the filter may do more harm.
If the tank is empty or correctly stocked but no corals .. getting the cyano under control should be fairly easy. If you can't , in no way should they move forward with a reef tank. What substrate are they using? If they have a larger substrate like crushed coral I can almost guarantee thats where your cyano fertilizer is and that would be the first thing for me to remove and put in a correct sand substrate.

I've already told him to cut back on the feedings. He has told me that he only puts in about 2-3 flakes at a time and makes sure they get eaten before adding in anymore. He was feeding once a day. I told him to cut back to once every other day and see how that went.

I am currently doing a 20% water change each week. He does need more rock. He has 50lbs but a couple of his larger rocks are VERY dense and weigh a ton. So he's got 50lbs of rock but it is still not a large amount because of the very dense pieces. I know that adding additional live rock can cause a mini cycle so what is the maximum amount of rock that should be added at a time?

I also think I might have talked him into a HOB fuge which is what I have on my tank. He only needs to pull the tank out 1 more inch to utilize one. I have a CPR HOB fuge and like it very much. I've added some macro algae to his tank though the urchin already ate part of it. I have some mangroves stuck into styrofoam that is floating at the top of the tank. Anything to help with nutrients. The plan is to move the mangroves to either a HOB fuge or sump when it gets set up since he doesn't really like them in the DT. He can suffer with it for now. I'm trying anything to get his nutrients under control.

Also, I have already told him that part of his problem is the substrate they have in the tank. It is crushed coral...not the more finely crushed stuff but the one with larger bits. I have already suggested replacing the substrate with sand. Would this cause a cycle? How would you go about replacing substrate in an already operating tank? I guess if need be, his fish can live in my aquarium for a limited time while we make necessary changes to his aquarium.

[Cloudburst2000]

Originally Posted by BigJay

it all depends on the fish. Certain fish do need to feed more often. I feed every other day @ 1x per day. All of the fish in my tank can be seen hunting for food on a regular basis wether its little bits of algae or copepods/amphipods etc.
Certain flake foods can be nasty. Most are made with dried fish meal and when it hits your tank anything uneatin readily mixes with the water. At least with frozen food if it gets into the rocks there are lots of life in your rock that will consume it. Allthough the ideal is to only put in the tank what goes directly into the fishes mouth.
Almost all corals can go without food. Feeding corals should be considered at 1x per week or 1x every 4th day. Feeding should be done only after the lights have been off for a while. A lot of corals won't expend the energy to put there feeding tentacles out unless food is already in the water column. At night when they are no longer receiving light for photosynthesis the energy to extend their tentacles becomes worthwhile. So in order to get a lot of corals to show a feeding response with the light on you have to pollute the water enough that the corals sense the presence of food in enough abundance that they feel they have more to gain by trying to feed rather then farm. Well as you can expect that really isn't good for the overall health of the tank.

Well, he doesn't have any corals. I feed my corals about every three days or so, but I turn off the pumps when I do and spot feed them. I also don't feed every coral each time. They are on a kind of rotating schedule. I just feed them what it left of what I fed the shrimp. So I don't have alot of uneaten food going into the water column.

[BigJay]

Originally Posted by Cloudburst2000

. I know that adding additional live rock can cause a mini cycle so what is the maximum amount of rock that should be added at a time?
How would you go about replacing substrate in an already operating tank? I guess if need be, his fish can live in my aquarium for a limited time while we make necessary changes to his aquarium.

I wouldn't add more then 5 to 10 pounds of rock at a time. I'd recomend going with something fully cured at a local LFS to avoid die off from shipping or going through the hassle of curing at home. Its a little more expensive this way but adding 1 rock every 3 to 4 weeks usually isn't too hard on the wallet.
Don't change all the sand at once. The crushed coral absolutely has to go. Start on one end and vaccum or scoop out what you can no more then about 25%. Replace that with reef sand and continue to monitor the tank. In a few weeks do another 25 %. In the meantime using a siphon tank cleaner to clean the crushed coral may not be a bad idea. Go slow and do your best not to silt the tank. All substrate needs to be replaced eventually so don't worry your going against the grain.
Good luck.