Diatom algae questions

[jimbanks]

I replied to a post with this general subject in another thread but am throwing it on here too for a little more exposure (plus I think this is actually the correct place for the thread anyway considering it deals with algae/diatom):

Hey guys, I'm hoping for a diatom/chemical junkie to help me out here. My 75 gallon tank is currently set up with crushed coral, some dead coral for decoration, about 20 pounds of live rock that I am slowly expanding, and some fish. 2 clowns, a baby trigger (that I intend to move into a new tank as he grows), a foxface, and a damsel. I have a Fluval 404 and an Aquaclear 100. I also have a Rio 1200 and a Penguin 550 powerhead.
So it seems the water circulates more than 10 or so times per hour and the filtration all is functioning great and the aeration seems adequate. I am having a Diatom bloom and am hoping to find out how to nip it. All levels are right on the money.

After doing some reading it looks like the phosphates that are coming in with my tap water are the culprit. I will likely be getting an RO/DI thing to alleviate this problem but am curious what happens if I don't. Will the diatoms continue to come back every time I do a water change? I understand that keeping the lights off will help stunt the growth but that seems kind of boring for a nice bright fish tank!!

Any advice would be appreciated!

edit-i forgot to mention that I currently don't have a clean up crew because my wife has some interest in a small puffer which might eat it. Given the constant maintenance of a tank with diatom blooms I may be able to talk her out of that and into a CUC. If I go that direction I was also curious what would be recommended with my current fish mix.(ie. any stars or snails in particular?) I understand that crabs are evil so will avoid those! I also read that some of these fish will gobble up a shrimp maybe so those might be off the menu.

[Stacef]

Ok, I will comment on the invert question. I am sure many will disagree, but I tested the question of puffers and clean up crew.

I have a Porc Puffer (Spam is his name) He hasn't touched my hermits, my feather duster, or anything else.

If you get one that may eat hermits and not be as nice as mine.. I honestly would go with an urchin, the puffer will leave them alone, and since mine passed, my tank has been a mess! I have to get a new one.

Also--Coral Banded Shrimp are known to hold up their gaurd to the puffers. One of the few from what I have read that will defend themselves. My CBS and puffer don't mind each other at all. Hope this helps. Sorry I wouldn't help on the diatom question, I am sure your tap water is a culprit of helping them spread!

[prow]

FO tank huh? ok well lots of things here. were to start. first diatoms like silicates FIY. now lets start with your source water(tap), where your silicates are coming from. dont use it for a number of reasons, unless you have tested it for things like chlorine, copper and such aswell as phos, trates, silicates ect....yes using it will result in a continued algae issue, among other things. do use RO/DI, even most of those machines outside the supermarkets is a better way to go.
next your fluval and CC. with a CC bed and LR you dont need the fuval. it gets dirty pretty fast and needs to be cleanned often (once week). with no lighting bacteria will grow in the fuval and with lots of flow only aerobic grow. because of the nutrients collected aerobic bac will grow there first as it does not have to compete with algaes in the main tank, consequencially algae has less compention for nutrients in the tank. allow the bacteria to grow in the main tank and compete with the algae for surface area aswell as nutrients. this goes for the aquaclear also. if you want to use them for flow i would take out all the media. your CC needs a good cleaning too, about a 1/4 of it cleaned out weekly.
for a CUC you just have the wrong fish in there with the trigger, esp since its already established. it will just think its feeding time. might be able to get some snails, what type of trigger is it?
what i would do is stop using tap water(your main issue) and use RO/DI or RO but NO TAP!!! that might be all you need to do but, have you thought about ditching the fuval and aquaclear filters, add a pump on a closed loop and add a good skimmer. perhaps add some more LR. exchange the CC with sand aswell, you know go FOWLR setup. it just seems to me your wanting/going for a FOWLR setup instead of FO, JMO, could be wrong.

[vdituri]

Lots of good info from Prow.

When I went from tap to DI water I saw a marked improvement in my diatom and algae issues. When I went from DI to RO & DI combined, WOW! Highly recommend it to anyone.
You may want to start there and see what results you get.
You don't want to change too many things all at once as you won't be able to tell what contributed to what.

You are moving in the right direction by adding more liverock.
Hard to pay that kind of money for rocks but it pays off in the health of your fish and lower maintenance of your tank.
Hope I helped a little.

[SJS]

I thought I was using RO/DI - turns out I was using the waste water - had a continuing diatom problem which led to some cyano.. Figured out the water issue - have done several large water changes and WOW the difference is tremendous. Very little diatom left, much more color on my rocks etc.. Did not increase the cuc - just changed the water..

[jimbanks]

Thank you all for the quick replies.

Prow, the trigger is a Niger, suuposedly the most tame of the species, not sure if that means he would beat up on a CUC or not though! I apprecite the info on the Diatom/silicate issue and intend to start using RO water, and in time, will get a RO/DI setup to make the optimal water, I might even drink it! I bought this whole setup used off of someone so I'm not sure what he used in the tank(cc or sand, LR or not) and couldn't explain his filter combo. I have explored the option of a closed loop system but aside from having trouble understanding it I also would like to continue working with what I have from an expense standpoint. This is my first venture into saltwater and I don't want to be scared out of the hobby by more big expenses (at least not for now, I know I'll be upgrading equipment as time goes by!) As far as cleaning 1/4 of the cc goes, how does one do that? Just scoop it out and clean it and then put it back in?

It seems, based on these replies, that changing from tap water to RO and ultimately RO/DI will fix this diatom problem for the most part. I don't think it would ever completely go away but as far as I know that's not really a huge problem. Would this assumption be correct? If so, I'll try that first and then venture into some of the other suggestions.

What do you guys think?

Thanks again for the info, it is a tremendous help.

[SJS]

Having inherited a tank - I understand the overwhelming part of the whole hobby. As long as your inhabitants are healthy then take the changes slowly. The easiest thing for me to change was the RO/DI - ordered a 75 gallon per day - set up was easy and I was in business.

[vdituri]

Go slow when you go to replace the CC.
There is alot of stuff stuck in there and if you disturb it too much you can cause a mini cycle. Bit by bit.

[prow]

Originally Posted by jimbanks

Thank you all for the quick replies.

Prow, the trigger is a Niger, suuposedly the most tame of the species, not sure if that means he would beat up on a CUC or not though!

just wanted to know mainly for growth. niger tiggers dont grow as big as some. so it being a baby you maybe able to get away with some CUC. the only wat to know for sure is try it out and hope for the best, likely you will have to be the CUC at some point.

I apprecite the info on the Diatom/silicate issue and intend to start using RO water, and in time, will get a RO/DI setup to make the optimal water, I might even drink it!

good idea, i setup my RODI unit so the RO/DI auto tops off the tank and then ran a DI bypass (RO only line) and setup an auto topoff water dispenser for drinking.

I bought this whole setup used off of someone so I'm not sure what he used in the tank(cc or sand, LR or not) and couldn't explain his filter combo. I have explored the option of a closed loop system but aside from having trouble understanding it I also would like to continue working with what I have from an expense standpoint.

totally understand that. after all, i am sure they forgot to mention the tank is the cheapest part.

for the closed loop its simple. your fluval is a closed loop, basically, minus the reservoir. if you replace the fluval with a pump and use the same plumbing you got a closed loop. to save $$$$ you can just use the fluva but leave out any media, its works the same as a closed loop, though some waste products and foods will get trapped in the fluvals reservoir and will need to be cleaned, bbut not as much as if there was media in it.

This is my first venture into saltwater and I don't want to be scared out of the hobby by more big expenses (at least not for now, I know I'll be upgrading equipment as time goes by!)

well then, welcome to SW have no fear it does get better and better as you go along

As far as cleaning 1/4 of the cc goes, how does one do that? Just scoop it out and clean it and then put it back in?

no no, dont take it out. just vacuum/syphon it. use tubing and dig into the CC when you do water changes and suck all the crap up. thats it. like said above you just dont want to disturb too much at one time.

It seems, based on these replies, that changing from tap water to RO and ultimately RO/DI will fix this diatom problem for the most part. I don't think it would ever completely go away but as far as I know that's not really a huge problem. Would this assumption be correct? If so, I'll try that first and then venture into some of the other suggestions.

yes, that be correct. actually diatoms are a good thing, they just look ugly and cover the glass blocking your view. do remember though, too much of any one thing is not a good thing.

What do you guys think?

i think you are asking the right questions and more importantly getting it. i think this may help you, great question added and explained along the way. its not for a FO tank, its for a reef but i think it will help you understand what going on. then you can get the why or why not when some say do this or that anyway hope it helps Newbies, a little something on cycling/breaking in a new reef tank.

[jimbanks]

I went down to the local spring water place where they bottle and distribute 'Monadnock Spring Water'. It's 35 cents per gallon and according to their tests available online there are no phosphates or silicates in the water. The funny thing is that right on the front of the machine where it shows the water facts you can see that one thing was crossed out with black marker. If you looked closely enough you could see that it used to say "prepared by reverse osmosis" argh!!! I decided to try some of it anyway before buying the RO machine so I'll be sure to let you guys know the progress.
On a side note, I read about a couple products for phosphate reduction. Phosban and Seagel. Prow, I saw your name on a couple of the Phosban threads and was curious what your experience was. I see it available pretty cheap and based on some of that thread I could pop it right in the Fluval canister. Is this worth it or should I stop cheaping out and just go RO/DI?

Thanks again everyone!

[prow]

lol, murphy is following you around
phos ban is good stuff. it works great for reducing elevated phos levels. i dont know about the seagel stuff though. phosban, i have used many times and keep it on hand incase i have issues but i only run it if phos levels are high.
if you use phosban, or any other, watch your alk levels as phosban can eat it up.
dont put it in your fluval. phosban is fine and soft. the flow within the fluval will turn it into dust and turn your tank orange.

get the RO/DI unit. you will not be cheaping out, it will pay for itself pretty quick. you will end up spending a lot more on other things dealing with this or that. for now, if can not get RO water, i would just use distilled water, instead of the spring, you can get it at most any supermarket.

[johnmaloney]

Niger triggers do alright with CUCs. The puffers are usually a problem, some people get lucky, but puffers defintely eat snails and crabs, seen it with my own eyes. BUt if you get them hooked on other foods, maybe they will refrain. A lot of good CUC members for diatoms, and this is probably one of the easier things to get rid of when/if you get a CUC. Ceriths and nerites devour this stuff. Copepods eat it up too, your fish will eat them, but if you get enough maybe they can breed faster than they are gobbled up.