Dinoflagellates - The documented journey

[Triggerjay]

Hello, I have a dinoflagellate outbreak, I am using this thread for advise, and to document the changes I make, and what those changes did, and if they make a difference in the outbreak, or have any negative effects on my system in general.

A little about my system:

My system was set up in August, 2007. It consists of a 125g AGA main display, located in my livingroom, a 100G rubbermaid sump, located in my basement, a 55g fuge, lit by a NO 48" shop light fixture, and three 40g frag tanks all located in the basement as well. My skimmer sits in my sump, and is a DIY model, powered by a sedra 9000. My main return pump is an Iwaki 100, running about a 14 foot head. I run carbon, phosban, a DIY calcium reactor, and a 40w Aqua UV unit all located in the fuge. I have a Reeflo Sequence Dart located under the stand of my main display tank, running my closed loop. My closed loop has 6 outlets, using 1/2" loc-line. There are no other pumps in the main display for flow, aside from the sump return, which is split, and has a drop in each rear corner of the tank. Lighting is provided by three 175W 14k SE hamiltons, and supplimented with two 54W HO T5 03 Actinics. All NSW and topoff water is by means of a 6 stage RO/DI. RO/DI filters are at about the 8 month mark.

What started my problem?
I wish I had the perfect answer for this. But I don't. I suspect however, that the problem started from a recent re-vamp of my internal overflow. My overflow, was DIY, like most of the equipment in my system. When I first built it, it was WAY too large, and looked out of place, and out of porportion. Here is a photo of the old beast:


Now you see what I am talking about. Something had to be done. I had to remove about 1/2 the water in the main display, and remove approximatley 100Lbs of LR to cut out the old overflow. I placed the LR in coolers, but did not add water. I then replaced the overflow with a new one I made, (with smaller dimensions) and siliconed it in. I had to wait about 7 hours for the silicone to semi-cure before I could refill the tank, and add the rock back. So now by this point, my rock had been sitting in the air for about 7 hours give or take a little. I added the rock back, (catching a pesky gorilla crab in the process) and re-aquascaped with my new found real-estate in the tank. Here is a photo of the new overflow:


I believe that the die-off of the rock, coupled with the stirring up of "dead zones" in the tank, contributed, and probably sparked my current issue. It has been about 5 or 6 weeks since I changed out the overflow.

Water Chemistry
My PH in this system has always run slightly low. My sump is located near the furnace in the basement, and could be a contributing factor for the low PH. My PH in this system has always run in the 8.0/8.1 range, depending on the time of day it was checked.

My calcium runs about 400-420

Alk usually about 3.6

Nitrates - 5 to 10 PPM

Nitrites - 0

Ammonia - 0

Magnesium - 1600

Phosphates - undetectable, but the Dyno's may be using it all up.

TDS of makeup water - 0

Temp - 80F

So that is the basic average of what my water chemistry runs. I am at work, so I don't have the exact #'s, but these are close enough to show the AVERAGE tank chemistry.

Recent Equipment Additions
DIY Calcium reactor. My calcium has been on a slow decline over the last couple of months, and Kalkwasser and water changes would barley keep up. At one point about 3 weeks ago, my calcium hit an all time low of 360. So I decided to add a calcium reactor. My friend John Kelly was kind enough to give me a great deal on a DIY reactor that he built, and he came over and we set it up. The starting point on the reactor, was 40 bubbles of gas a minute, and a trickle into my fuge of 40ML per minute. PH coming out of the reactor is about 6.5, with a calcium reading of 420. The calcium reactor has been running about two weeks. This is the only recent addition of equipment to the system other than the new overflow box.

When the problem appeared, and how it appeared:
My problem started about a month ago, which corresponds with the timeline on the overflow replacement. It started out as a Cyano (Red slime) outbreak. I bought a bottle of Chemi-Clean Red Slime Remover, and dosed as per the directions. I have used this product in the past on another system with no ill effects. I left my skimmer off for two days, as per the directions on the chemi-clean. It was very successful at removing the red-slime, but in the days following, I started to get what looked like brown diatoms in the sandbed. (Mostly where the Cyano was previously). Over the next few days, my rocks, and everything towards the center of my tank started to take on a brown "hue". Then from this point, the brown started to take on a short turf like appearance similiar to the beginning stages of a hair algae outbreak. It then transformed from this, to a brown slime, covering nearly anything in its path. Around the same time, it also started producing bubbles, which I can imagine is carbon dioxide.

Changes I have made to reduce the problem

So far, I have stepped up my regular weekly 25g water change to a 55g water change. I have lowered the temperature of the system to 78F. I replaced the carbon in my carbon reactor (two little fishies Phosban reactor) and replaced the phosban material in my phosban reactor (also a two little fishies phosban reactor). In the past, I have been feeding my fish a home-made mush, containing all sorts of sea-food, and use a nori clip for the non-meat eaters. I have this week replaced my fish mush food with Formula 1 flake food, but continue the use of the nori clip. I have also regulated the water level in the main sump to make my skimmer more efficient. I was having to play with it daily depending on the water level. Now the skimmer gets a constant water level, and its a set-it and forget it!

Other changes I would like to make
I have been researching Dino's, and have read that an elevated PH will sometimes reduce, or eliminate the Dyno. I have seen anything from 8.5 to 8.7. This is something I would like to try IF I can find a means to do so without changing my other water chemistry. I am also considering reducing my photoperiod on the main dpsplay to 4 hours a day, if research prooves it will not harm my corals. I am also considering changing my RO filters, and DI resin. It reads 0 TDS, but may be leaching silicates or something else helping to fuel my problem.

Any other suggestions? I will document the results of my changes in this thread as well as posting pictures on a day to day basis of the problematic areas in the main display. So far, it has only been earlier today, I started making the changes to my temperature. Like I said before, I am stuck at work for the night, but will start posting photos in the morning. Something else to note. The Dino's get worse as the day progresses, and in the morning, are "almost" not visable. Thanks for reading, and if you have any method not mentioned, or further suggestions, or are fighting this problem yourself, don't hesitate to jump in. Thanks

Jason

[Triggerjay]

Some reading I found useful:
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Aquarium.Net A Discussion of Algae
Dinoflagellates - Predators, Pathogens, and Partners by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Dinoflagellates, or was that "Boogers with Bubbles"?

I also forgot to note, that the problem only exists in my main display tank. The frag tanks, sump, and fuge show no signs of the outbreak. My main display tank temperature is slightly higher than the rest of the system due to the lighting, and the fact it is on the main level of the house, and not in the cooler basement like the rest of the system. My heaters are located in the main display tank as well, for better regulation of temperature in the main display. If I heated the water to 80F in the basement, it would end up being like 82F or so in the main display due to what I just stated. The water in the basement runs about 2F cooler in the basement than the main display and could possibly be the reason why the outbreak has not spread there.

Jason

[JWarren]

Jason,

Please post a pic of your sump and show how the water is entering it as well as it's exit back to the show tank.

Is the furnace Gas?

Have you checked your basement for methane levels?

[Triggerjay]

I am at work, But I will see if I have some pics of the plumbing in my photobucket. Yes, the furnace is gas. It is located about 8 feet from the sump. It is a 95 plus furnace, and uses a PVC exhaust. There is another PVC "port" on the furnace that is for fresh air, that is supposed to be plumbed outside to bring in fresh air to the house, but the installers never ran it outside, so basically, the furnace is only re-circulating te air already in the house. I have never had the basement checked for methane levels. Lemme see what I can dig out of the photobucket....:


Jason

[Triggerjay]

Sorry its hard to read.. I did that a while back to explain my plumbig to someone setting up a new tank... It seemed bigger then! Since that pic, I have also added a dedicated circut, and cleaned up all the electrical...Basically, everything from the pump on the floor is a feed to the fuge, display, etc, and everything else is a return to the sump...

Jason

[Frankie]

Hmmm, this also falls in the time line of your threads with the Round Robin. I wonder if you inadvertently introduced nasties to your system from other tanks. were you quarantining the zoo's and whatnots?

[Triggerjay]

Guilty as charged! All I ever do to corals is Reef dip them... Fish, different story...

Jason

[prow]

Originally Posted by Triggerjay

Hello, I have a dinoflagellate outbreak, I am using this thread for advise, and to document the changes I make, and what those changes did, and if they make a difference in the outbreak, or have any negative effects on my system in general.

i wish i would have done this. i had to battle dino's, and i won lately i have seen more and more people having issues with dino's. good thinking we need a dino thread.

What started my problem?

who knows for sure

I believe that the die-off of the rock, coupled with the stirring up of "dead zones" in the tank, contributed, and probably sparked my current issue. It has been about 5 or 6 weeks since I changed out the overflow.

yeah i agree but will add a couple things. removing the overflow allowed light to get back behind the rock, enabling photo bac/algae to grow, changes in flow patterns esp behind the rock. removing the rock and the resulting in bacterial die off not only added nutrients but also reduced compition for those nutrients. the chemi pure preventing other bac/algae from competing with the dino's. eleveated CO2(from lack of flow/indoor CO2/lack of air flow, ect..i that was the original cause/fuel for the cyano. the removal of rock, increase exposure to light in some areas, water flow pattern changes, using chemi pure(even though no issue before), adding the Ca+ reactor, others. individually not as bad but all together builds up a pretty clear picture.
you kinda got a new tank now, like you just ordered new rock and got it and put it in a stocked tank. in hindsight placing the rocks in heated circulating water with NSW parameters would have been the way to go. anyway, now i would start by focussing on rebuilding your bacteria biofiltraton. IMO, a litte curing is inorder. so lights out, good water parameteres, even do daily, everother day, water changes with blowing off the rock, heavy skimming, some good carbon. i would also turn off the Ca+reactor during this time, calcification will be slowed while llights off, dont want the CO2 fueling other things. after a week start cycling the light and cut back water changes, see how things go, your bacteria should rebuild quickly if given the chance(reducing compition).

Water Chemistry
My PH in this system has always run slightly low. My sump is located near the furnace in the basement, and could be a contributing factor for the low PH. My PH in this system has always run in the 8.0/8.1 range, depending on the time of day it was checked.

is this before or after you added the Ca+reactor? what was the ph running before and after teh Ca+reactor was added?



Changes I have made to reduce the problem

Other changes I would like to make
I have been researching Dino's, and have read that an elevated PH will sometimes reduce, or eliminate the Dyno.

yeah i hear the same. but you will have a hard time getting it there with the Ca+reactor running. i would avoid playing with the chemistry too much, allow your bacteria to retake the lead in dealing with nutrients.

I am also considering changing my RO filters, and DI resin. It reads 0 TDS, but may be leaching silicates or something else helping to fuel my problem.

or something, RO/DI units are plagued with bacterial, viral and protozoans growing within the tubing and DI resin. if the unit has been going for a couple years i would also check teh RO membrane.

I started making the changes to my temperature.

what changes? lowering it?

The Dino's get worse as the day progresses, and in the morning, are "almost" not visable.

sounds typical for new setups. dino's are not uncommon in new setups. usually after you bacteria colonies gets established, in your case reestablished, they go away on their own. after you get past this, dont use chemi pure again, cynoa is much easier to deal with than dino's.

dont know if this was any help. when i delt with dinos, some snails i bought introduced red turf algae. once that came into the picture it took care of the dinos but the turf algae took many months to get rid of.

[Triggerjay]

Originally Posted by prow

yeah i agree but will add a couple things. removing the overflow allowed light to get back behind the rock, enabling photo bac/algae to grow, changes in flow patterns esp behind the rock. removing the rock and the resulting in bacterial die off not only added nutrients but also reduced compition for those nutrients. the chemi pure preventing other bac/algae from competing with the dino's. eleveated CO2(from lack of flow/indoor CO2/lack of air flow, ect..i that was the original cause/fuel for the cyano. the removal of rock, increase exposure to light in some areas, water flow pattern changes, using chemi pure(even though no issue before), adding the Ca+ reactor, others. individually not as bad but all together builds up a pretty clear picture.
you kinda got a new tank now, like you just ordered new rock and got it and put it in a stocked tank. in hindsight placing the rocks in heated circulating water with NSW parameters would have been the way to go. anyway, now i would start by focussing on rebuilding your bacteria biofiltraton. IMO, a litte curing is inorder. so lights out, good water parameteres, even do daily, everother day, water changes with blowing off the rock, heavy skimming, some good carbon. i would also turn off the Ca+reactor during this time, calcification will be slowed while llights off, dont want the CO2 fueling other things. after a week start cycling the light and cut back water changes, see how things go, your bacteria should rebuild quickly if given the chance(reducing compition).

This Makes sense to me....

is this before or after you added the Ca+reactor? what was the ph running before and after teh Ca+reactor was added?

The PH has always ran about 8.0/8.1 even before the reactor

What changes? lowering it?

Yes, went from 80F to 78F

sounds typical for new setups. dino's are not uncommon in new setups. usually after you bacteria colonies gets established, in your case reestablished, they go away on their own. after you get past this, dont use chemi pure again, cynoa is much easier to deal with than dino's.

I will remember that.

dont know if this was any help. when i delt with dinos, some snails i bought introduced red turf algae. once that came into the picture it took care of the dinos but the turf algae took many months to get rid of.

That doesn't sound like any fun... Thanks for the input!

Jason

[kathywithbirds]

OK, it's 4:30 (almost) I am hopped up on antibiotics and have had little sleep because of coughing and sweating and am actually a little dizzy...

.. really never had to deal with this at all and have barely read about the dinos except some stuff posted here...

... I'm gettin' there...


this "turf algae"... any relation to what Sas did with his crocheting supplies? (wart thread)

[Triggerjay]

Don't know. I will have to go take a look...

Jason

[JWarren]

Prow has made some very good points and I agree with his points, except for one. The lighting situation.

I have never black out any of my tanks that ever acquired dinos in a normally operating tank and I not saying that you shouldn't, in your case

I let it consume whatever it was there to consume and die out. I would load the tank up with micro's and let it run it's course as well as make a huge increase in the CUC and additional water changes to the normal schedule. I Have found that hindering or trying to do battle with dino, has resulted in additional out breaks somewhere down the road and generally happen the first opportunity favorable conditions exist. In the instance of letting it run its course and die out I have yet to have a tank redevelop dino. This has been my experience with dino.

Now having said that, and being the investigative type, I look at any possible source for feeding dino. Obviously, you are having die off on your rocks and this is feeding your dino. So, I do agree with what prow (sorry can't remember your first name) said in relation to your dino situation. The dino is feeding off the dieing organics from the rocks which were in your cooler for seven hours. This has thrown your tanks biological equilibrium off and you may see some cycling of the tank as if it were new. Well 50% new anyway. Like Prow said, it's going to have to catch back up. You may want to give some consideration the any fish that are in that tanks, ammonia levels may become present.

Now moving along, when I spoke to you the other night, I was unaware of the rock being in a cooler for seven hours, so I was thinking about what you said about the tank being a higher temperature than the sump in the basement. You said you had a heater in the tank and it was set at 82F. I recommended you drop that to 79F (prow, thats were that came from). I'm glad you were able to get the temp down a bit that should help.

I asked you about the methane because any house that has a gas appliance should have a methane detector. Methane is the primary ingredient in natural gas. For every one molecule of methane that burns with oxygen 1 molecule of CO2 is released, since you said the PVC pipe that is supposed to be vented to the outside, you may be building up quite a bit of CO2 in your house, NO?

Anyway, back to the methane, I have been doing a bit of research over the years, in the grasslands down in the Keys (Key largo actually). These are located in the shallows on the west side of the key in about 8-16 ft of water. There are water channels in the floor that resemble springs that water is expelled from. The water is quite warm and through my regulator I get a strong smell of sulfur. I had brought back several water samples and they tested positive for methane. What is very interesting about these springs is the amount of Dinoflagellates surrounding it. I am talking so thick, if you put your hand down through it, it would come up almost to your elbow before hitting actual sand bottom. You don't see it anywhere but around these springs.

So, out of my own curiosity I am wondering if you have methane present around your sump.

Great thread Jason! I'll be tagging along with ya on this one.

[Triggerjay]

Originally Posted by kathywithbirds

this "turf algae"... any relation to what Sas did with his crocheting supplies? (wart thread)

Just found what you are talking about (Thanks Woodstock). What SAS did was make an algae scrubber... To purposly grow algae on the mat, then rinse the algae off when it gets populated.. This is a great way to remove nutrients. Same basic concept as a fuge, .. in a fuge, the macro algae grows, absorbing excess nutrients, and then when "harvested" the excess nutrients are removed along with the macro algae.. Not really releated to my problem..
But useful none the less! Thanks!

Jason

[Triggerjay]

Originally Posted by JWarren

I asked you about the methane because any house that has a gas appliance should have a methane detector. Methane is the primary ingredient in natural gas. For every one molecule of methane that burns with oxygen 1 molecule of CO2 is released, since you said the PVC pipe that is supposed to be vented to the outside, you may be building up quite a bit of CO2 in your house, NO?

The exhaust is vented to the outside of the house.. Its the fresh air intake that is not vented out. I kind of see why they did this however,.. Theres only one logical spot to run it out, and it would end up being near the exhaust, possibly sucking exhaust fumes/CO2 back into the house via the intake.

Originally Posted by JWarren

Anyway, back to the methane, I have been doing a bit of research over the years, in the grasslands down in the Keys (Key largo actually). These are located in the shallows on the west side of the key in about 8-16 ft of water. There are water channels in the floor that resemble springs that water is expelled from. The water is quite warm and through my regulator I get a strong smell of sulfur. I had brought back several water samples and they tested positive for methane. What is very interesting about these springs is the amount of Dinoflagellates surrounding it. I am talking so thick, if you put your hand down through it, it would come up almost to your elbow before hitting actual sand bottom. You don't see it anywhere but around these springs.

So, out of my own curiosity I am wondering if you have methane present around your sump.

Great thread Jason! I'll be tagging along with ya on this one.

I will pick up a methane detector next time I am at the store..This could be a real possiblilty.. Especially being so close to the furnace. I think I also have a CO2 water test kit. They were throwing away a bunch of boiler test kits here at work, and I grabbed onto it.. Al least I think thats what it is. I will have to look...Thanks

Jason

[Woodstock]

Great thread!

Where would the methane detector be placed? I too have all gas appliances, maybe I should get one also? I do not have dino's though.