Shrimp and the cycle

[NATIVEVAMAN]

I would like to reopen the debate about using table shrimp or other fish scraps to enhance or speed up the cycle.In another thread where this was discussed I asked for someone to put a few links in about the subject and why people should do this,I didnt get any.So today I did a little research and googled tank cycling.To my suprise there must be hundreds of "how too"s" on the subject.I have to admit that after reading 12 of them I was quite bored.I did find one article that recomended using it when cycling the rock outside the tank,as in a tub before putting the rock in the tank.It said not to do this if cycling the rock in the tank.Ten made no mention of it at all.Here are some samples.
Nitrogen Cycle
Simplified Reef Keeping's Frequently asked Questions
What Is The Nitrogen Cycling Process? (Continued)
And then there was this one.

Getting my cycle started - Question - The Reef Tank
I would say that the shrimp cycle theory is pure myth.The problem with it is that it has been a myth for so long that it gets creedance from longevity,not from basis in fact.If this was such a great thing to do for a tank and its cycle I feel it would be more widely known and mentioned in every article concerning the cycle.If anyone has any evidence aricles,data anything I would love to read it.

[mps9506]

I don't see why there needs to be another thread, we have three pages here:
Shrimp and cycles

I did find one article that recomended using it when cycling the rock outside the tank,as in a tub before putting the rock in the tank.It said not to do this if cycling the rock in the tank.

I definitely agree with this. If you are getting fresh live rock with some die off, you get an ammonia spike and start your cycle. If you are curing your live rock outside your main tank to minimize the nutrient buildup in the display tank then it would be a good idea to add an ammonia source and make sure you have a good bacterial base before you add any livestock.
I really don't see what the debate is?

You like to cycle your tank with fresh live rock, I don't think that is a wrong way, and neither is using a piece of shrimp or alternative ammonia source....

[JWarren]

I personally don't think it would do a bit of good. You seem pretty set in your ways and are unwilling to accept anything new. This is just my observation from reading your posts and I mean nothing personal by it. But, there are a number of experienced reefers here that have used this method, including myself, to start a tank cycle using base rock. I don't know exactly what authority you would listen to, if I did post some links, so I won't bother.

I have never, ever heard of anyone adding or even recommending adding a dead shrimp to enhance or speed up cycle. Maybe you could find were you read that and set that incorrect person straight or post a link to it and we will all gang up on them till they submit to perfection.

[prow]

i agree with mike 100%.
well, now i dont have to repeat all this, hehe,. give this a read Newbies, a little something on cycling/breaking in a new reef tank.. i do go into shrimp/LR-cured and uncured. as the thread goes on.
deli shrimps are fine to use, i perfer LR only because of the diversity of life and the amount of microbes that break down decaying for the carbons which inturn releases ammonia(NH3) and starts up the nitrogen cycle. but there are plenty around to do the job with a deli shrimp.

[prow]

Originally Posted by NATIVEVAMAN

I would say that the shrimp cycle theory is pure myth.The problem with it is that it has been a myth for so long that it gets creedance from longevity,not from basis in fact.If this was such a great thing to do for a tank and its cycle I feel it would be more widely known and mentioned in every article concerning the cycle.If anyone has any evidence aricles,data anything I would love to read it.

huh? anything organic that is dead and has started to decay will release ammonia, including a deli how is that myth?

here is qoute from here; Nitrogen Cycle

Nitrogen is introduced into the aquarium in a variety of ways. Here are the three major contributors of nitrogen:

Introduced organisms. Every living organisms, from fish to algae, all have great quantities of assimilated nitrogen in their tissues. Remember that nitrogen is a fundamental ingredient for the formation of proteins and nucleic acids. Every time you introduce fishes, corals, live rocks, shrimps, crabs, worms, macroalgae, etc., you introduce nitrogen into your system.

Food inputs. Foods are merely an extension of item #1. Dead or alive, they are organic masses, and possess the same nitrogenous attributes as the decorative living organisms you introduce.

Inorganic inputs. There are two major sources for inorganic nitrogen: the atmosphere and introduced water. Atmospheric nitrogen (N2) is incorporated into our aquarium water via nitrogen fixation by bacteria and cyanobacteria as ammonia (NH3). Inorganic nitrogenous compounds from our municipal water system enter our aquarium. Even after employing extensive filtering systems such as reverse osmosis and deionization, trace quantities of nitrogen is still imported into our aquariums, and accumulate over time. The most common compounds are the ammonias and its oxides: NO2 & NO3..

[sasquatch]

"I would like to reopen the debate about using table shrimp or other fish scraps to enhance or speed up the cycle."

"debate" De ting we use to catch de fish"

(enhance or speed up) neither one, fresh off the plane LR will cycle all by its self from die off, cured rock from a vat at the lfs has "done the deed" and gone quiet, at some point both FLR and CLR have an optimal point where it can accommodate a bio load addition, CLR has finished its optimal condition and has little useful bacteria left for adding a bio load to, it starved to death from lack of food, adding a deli shrimp or a live guinea pig achieve the same goal with the deli shrimp incurring far less unhappy karma for the reefer, the ammonia cycle resumes cruises along thru it various stages and poof! your ready to add fish, now a tank full of dead dry base rock would be both enhanced and speeded up, but thats a whole other ting lol.Steve

[prow]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

"I would like to reopen the debate about using table shrimp or other fish scraps to enhance or speed up the cycle."

"debate" De ting we use to catch de fish"

adding a deli shrimp or a live guinea pig achieve the same goal with the deli shrimp incurring far less unhappy karma for the reefer,

ok now you are starting to scare me here, i am not so sure on the use of a live guinea pig bringing "far less unhappy karma"

[NATIVEVAMAN]

sasquatch,debate is what the fish does to you while fishing lol.
All I did was ask for some sort of proof of what was being said,if that makes me hard headed then so be it.I can say two things,you wont find any one more willing to learn than I am.And that I can even be fun.When I asked for proof I was ignored and when I offered my own,well I dont think I fared much better.

[mps9506]

You seem pretty set in your ways and are unwilling to accept anything new

Hardly. I said that using live rock to cycle your tank works perfectly fine.

My proof lies in my experience using said shrimp to initiate cycles in aquariums several times.
decaying shrimp=nitrogen source=cycle.
simple?

[lcstorc]

Everybody play nice now.
It's really all very simple. You need an amonia source to feed the bacteria that process the first part of the nitrogen cycle.
It doesn't matter where the amonia comes from. Straight pure household amonia can be used and there is a wonderful thread about that process. As was once said (I think Big Al but could be wrong) you could even pee in the tank. A deli shrimp is just a simple cheap method of providing the amonia source needed. In the past people cycled tanks with live fish. Their waste provided the amonia source to feed the cycle. Fortunately we now realize we can cycle with many things and it is cruel to the animal to subject them to that stress.
As far as curing with live rock it is the same thing. They dying matter on the curing rock provides the amonia source. It can literally come from anywhere. The shrimp is just cheap and easy.

[JWarren]

The post was for the VAMAN Mike, not for you. It just happened to land under yours.

[prow]

i thought i gave enough evidence? but for proof on cycling a reef tank will not find. its just that there is no money to fund such studies and no purpose as it is well known that decaying organic matter releases ammonia. you will have to go back to basics and just see it is so, any dead organic thing will decompose and release NH4. this includes wastes from living things and decaying dead things, like a dead deli shrimp.

here is on link for ya, do a search there are a ton of these. carbon-nitrogen cycle: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

Microbes decompose the remains and waste of all living things into ammonia (ammonification); the ammonia may leave the soil through vaporization into the air or leaching into water. Ammonia remaining in soil may be transformed by bacteria into nitrates (nitrification), which then can be reassimilated into living organisms, or into free nitrogen (denitrification), which reenters the atmosphere. Hence, once fixed from air, some nitrogen goes through the cycle repeatedly without returning to the gaseous state.

[mps9506]

And hence why I should drink a coffee after work before reading posts


Native, did you read my last post on the original thread you posted?
Shrimp and cycles

Do you have any specific disagreement with that?

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by NATIVEVAMAN

sasquatch,debate is what the fish does to you while fishing lol.
All I did was ask for some sort of proof of what was being said,if that makes me hard headed then so be it.I can say two things,you wont find any one more willing to learn than I am.And that I can even be fun.When I asked for proof I was ignored and when I offered my own,well I dont think I fared much better.

"I would like to reopen the debate about using table shrimp or other fish scraps to enhance or speed up the cycle."
I know you can be fun, Im a member of "that other place too" just to try and make some sense of this debate please show us where you got the information in question

[BigAl07]

Originally Posted by lcstorc

....(I think Big Al but could be wrong) you could even pee in the tank. ...

Way to go! Now yall gotta drag ME into this mess yall call a Da-bate!!

I think all the bases are covered here... you CAN use a deli shrimp or anything that adds "food" for the cycle. I don't have anything scientific I can show but I did cycle my 90g tank with the following...

Live Sand
MANY lbs of Dry Base rock
Several freshly cleaned Deli Shrimp....

Over the first week not much happened.. I tested daily (flaw of mine) and then on week #2 I noticed the shrimp SWELL up about 3x normal size.. in 2 days it was gone.... during this time I was able to "Watch" the ammonia slowly creep up then over night SPIKE through the roof. Once I saw the "Ginea Pigs" start to melt away I added 3 more. By this point I didn't need the ammonia test kit because Julie was very attimant explaining she didn't like the "Urine Smell" the moment she walks in the door in the evening. Still testing I now was able to see Ammonia start to drop while at the same time Nitrites quickly spiking!! I kept testing, adding and testing until I saw the Nitrates start to come up. By that point I stopped adding any more "Fuel to the fire" and allowed it to complete. Roughly 3+ weeks from the initial adding of a deli shrimp I merely sat back and "Watched" the levels. By this point ammonia dropped through the bottom of the scale and the "Ginnea Pigs" were decaying almost too quick to even appreciate it was happening. Nitrites finally leveled and dropped with Nitrates creeping up. I never have gotten a large Nitrate level but then again I do roughly 25% - 30% water changes weekly (yeah a flaw).

I don't have anything scientific other than my observations and my testing.

I hope this helps and maybe it will save SOME damsels or chromis from Ammonia Torture in the future.

Yes you could PEE into the tank but you'd be adding MANY more chemicals and it might smell like a Fred Flint-stone vitamin

Our Local Reef Club president did an article about 2 months ago on cycling and he prefers the 100% Pure (no additives at all) method because through his tests he gets less Diatom Bloom this way. Maybe in my next tank I'll try that as well.