Newbies, a little something on cycling/breaking in a new reef tank.

[bluespotjawfish]

bluespotjawfish, ahhh that pop pop naaa its not is it, naaa

I've already had to remove TWO of those! I'm hoping it's not!

[ChrisP]

I can't thank you enough, PROW! I've been in this hobby for years and study posts on a number of forums. You finally put things together for me in a n understandable way.
Chris

[althea2you]

great post prow... sorry im just getting to tell how much i liked it... but i have been reading! and re reading! so that when i do start to set up i will be very familiar with this. i want this RIGHT darn it... i want a nice tank that was started right form the get go! so i appreciate you taking the time to "spell" it out for me and everyone else!! i actually printed it out so i could read it...:P i was getting a serious crick in my neck sitting at the PC

[djbacon]

Prow, Doc,

Sincerely, thanks for all the reading material and great advice. Im just diving into this hobby and while I am using all cured LR Live Sand AND the water from the LSF. I am taking my time and waiting and most importantly understanding thanks to folks like you. Numbers have temp have been steady for 3 days running but I am not planning on adding anything for at least a month. Plan on using that time to read and read and read.

My end goal is a shallow mushroom and zoa reef tank with only a couple small fish. I had already put my lights on timers (unneccesary at this point) and likely to just promote the algae growth I do not want.

Sounds like the bio balls need to go and get replaced by a skimmer in a couple weeks if what I want is primarily a soft coral reef tank (please correct me if I misread this). Im running a 14g Biocube and its my first sw tank.

Im also noticing quite a few long (1/4" to an inch) white strands emerging from the LR. Are these feather duster worms? Anything to be worried about? I'm hoping Im identifying these correctly. They are about a mil thick at 1/4" in length and thin out to hair width as they stretch to an inch or so. when they stretch they have perpendiclular little arms (look like a really tiny skinny pipe cleaner). Anyway, thanks again for all the great info.

You guys are awesome.

[prow]

thanks, its nice to know that it is helping it was kinda challenging not going into all the details, so as not lose the "big picture"

ChrisP, thats sweets, like Dr.Hank said, this is not really for "newbies" and i know you know what i am talking about on how much of the info out there starts getting into the little stuff with whatever setup and leaves out the dynamics of other cycle interactions, or just provides info for part of system, which leads to "lost in translation" info.

althea2you, you will have a nice tank, just the fact that you are here=nice tank

bluespotjawfish, aahhh, those two left behind a not so cute baby lets hope it grows slowly. for those of you who are going, huh? we are talking about a very unwanted creature. the dreaded mantis shrimp, its a slicer, its a dicer and its hungry for your fish, crabs, snails and yes your fingers are on the menu too. but, even this guy is wanted by some. its really a cool creature but after it grows up it does not go well with much of anything. they pretty much need a tank dedicated to them.

[prow]

Originally Posted by djbacon

Prow, Doc,

Sincerely, thanks for all the reading material and great advice. Im just diving into this hobby and while I am using all cured LR Live Sand AND the water from the LSF. I am taking my time and waiting and most importantly understanding thanks to folks like you. Numbers have temp have been steady for 3 days running but I am not planning on adding anything for at least a month. Plan on using that time to read and read and read.

planning on waiting a month and reading up in the mean time puts you leaps and bound ahead of most

My end goal is a shallow mushroom and zoa reef tank with only a couple small fish.

nice, your are doing a chronicle, with lots of pics, right

I had already put my lights on timers (unneccesary at this point) and likely to just promote the algae growth I do not want.

yup exactly.
even though your water parameters may be all good, when you increase the lighting for corals the algae could really take off on you. increasing food/energy sources ect.., at least now you can see how that can happen.

a little expanding on this;
first of all, for microalgae, ambient lighting is enough to get it growing/cycling.
now, because of how algae cycles (NH3-NO3 stuff) and our desire for bacteria to proccesses them not algae we try to control it, esp in the begining. but because algae use of photosynthesis(CO2)(will explain), at night with reduced photosynthesis, algae growth will be limited and some will die off. plus, its also the time when tiny creatures(microbes that break down waste.) like to come out, which adds nutrients, kinda. now, remember anaerobic bacteria dont care so much about lighting or O2(CO2) levels, they are wanting that NO3. but they grow slower. so, with no photosynthesis (night time) you get algae die off plus added nutrients/energy sources (NH3-NO3-CO2), with little anaerobic growth at first, nutrients accumulate as well as CO2 "energy". its not really a problem later, after things balance. however, these type things are magnified during the first month/months.
light will get in the tank anyway, unless its covered or in a dark room, and algae will grow. the die off at night will add nutrients and little to no algae grow will occur, because anaerobics grow slower and in the begining their numbers are low, an accumulation of nutrients results at night, (namely NH3-NO3 and CO2) and bloomings occur during the day (photoperiods), which spreeds the algae. again lights off, this time more die off=more nutrients added. during the next day bigger bloomings occur, all cycles increasingly repeat until the tank is fully cycled (meaning all cycles are balanced with-in themselves and with-in eachother). so think of lighting as a tool of control.

before algae gets too bad of a name: lets look at it a little closer;
algae blooms will occur and are very much needed but more for their respirations and energy(sugar). we want bacteria to deal with waste like NO3, not algae(not going into how algae eats up NH3 or NO3 here, thats a scurbber topic). however, as much as we dont want algae to be the main waste filter, we still need algae for many reasons including dealing with CO2-going to get a little tiny bit tech here ;-here i hope you we be able to see more how several processes "dynamics" interact and how it gets more tricky with the interactions amoung all this stuff . it can get pretty advanced pretty quick, i dont want anyone to think they need to master any of this inorder to have a nice reef or even know about it if you have not totally got the previous stuff dont get to caught up in trying to understand how all this goes and works with eachother, trust me you dont need know, but there is plenty the learn about this if you wish, no need stressing on it, if you get too confused or can not follow dont worry , as long as you get the first couple posts you will have a good solid start and learn more as needed, a solid start makes for a very forgiving reef.

ok, lets take a quick look at resprations shall we:resprations is basically gas exchanges of CO2-O2. most know something about it happening at the water surface, as is applies to atmospheric gas exchange and CO2 levels effect on ph. but our tank are very limited in water surface area and atmospheric gas exchange, as a result our tanks, and us, use other means/methods to compensate for this and provide adequate respirations to balance things. how
we well use skimmers add buffers(react with CO2) reducing the work load on certian process like photosynthesis, kinda we grow algae, but perfer macros because they are easier to control than micros, later corals help too, stuff like that.

as for gas exchange at the water surface, in short, really it can get complicated, is just CO2 leaving and O2 entering by way of diffusion, limited to CO2 atmospheric levels. (note; rippling of the water surface increased flow water and air flow increase the diffusion rates). but because photosynthesis and respirations are so interlinked and the carbon cycle is linked along with everything else already posted, it starts to gets twisted on how it relates, and how everything relates to everthing. you really need to recognize/be familiar with the carbon cycle becasue its really the glue, no need to master it, though.
here is are real simple explaination Carbon Cycle - Recycling carbon
here is a more indepth explaination.
The Carbon Cycle

ok lets, take a peek at respirations (think, O2 and CO2 exchanges)
aerobic respiration-is used by both bacteria and algae.
CO2=carbon dioxide O2=oxygen H2O=water C6H12O6=glucose(sugar)

aerobic respiration of bacteria
C6H12O6 + O2 energy to ATP > CO2 + H2O
algae as photosynthesizers(light)
CO2 + H2O light > C6H12O6 + O2

now if you look at aerobic bac and algae you see how they work togather in other ways, not only NH3-NO3 stuff, but with gas exchange aswell. stretch that out you see the cycle. the end result of aerobic bacterial respirations is the begining of photosynthesis and algae respirations. only now here we are dealing with energy sources as controls instead of nutrients(building materials) kinda. lighting for you in this case. then it start going really advanced on how the energy(sugar production) is used in other processes. its all goes together.

here this, esp. the last couple lines, should help get photosynthesis and what i am talking about. just went into this because it does play a part in setting up things to balance in ways we want. Photosynthesis
now, hopefully your still we me, and you can see how lighting plays a huge role in balancing things, and cycling in your lighting is just that, effects on ph-CO2-algae ect...its a domino effect that really dose effect everything, cycling your lighting to fast could result in blooms and overgrowths, however if enough anaerobic activity are present the algea blooms will be limited by anaerobic activity.

as you can see photosynthesis, repirations, carbon cycles, nitrogen cycles and others we have not even touched. phosphorus cycles, silicate cycles, water cycles ect.... all play roles, its a real ecosystem we got going on

by adding lights from day 1, too early, really helps encourage a chronic algae "problem" (perceived problem). what i meant by a viscous cycle. now dont go to the extreme, left field, point of view, there is a lot of play here and many other factors come into play, like future additions (CUC, fish ect...). even corals effect everything. example corals use Alk which effects ph/CO2 levles which effects respirations which effects ect..., it gets crazy, too crazy and what works and is acceptable algae growth levels varies with everyone and everysystem. it really gets interesting when you look at chemistry and microbiology interactions. again though you dont need to know all this and should learn one aspect/method before going to crazy. hope when you deal with chemistry issues knowing that, that too is included in a ecosystem.

Sounds like the bio balls need to go and get replaced by a skimmer in a couple weeks if what I want is primarily a soft coral reef tank (please correct me if I misread this). Im running a 14g Biocube and its my first sw tank.

oh yeah you got it. i would not wait to remove the bio balls though. i see you are understanding how bio balls work. but will go into it a little bit again for others and add a little something more
what this bring up is another thing on bacterial culturing. that thing is the proximity of growths. what i mean is, i see you understand how bio balls only provide a surface area for aerobic bacteria to grow. which of course results in NO3 production. now because of the surface area and placement of bio balls( usually in high water flow=high O2 levels, but same if place anywhere) the aerobics will grow in that high food/energy area, on the bio balls, before they grow else where. so then the NO3 has to travel throughout the water column before anaerobic bacteria can get to it. now in this case, the algae will get the first chance to eat up the NO3, before the anaerobics have a chance. if the aerobic bacteria is encouraged to grow on the rock instead of on things like bio balls, dirty filter socks, any prefilter/spongy things, then the NO3 thats being produced is right next to the anaerobics and get eatn' up before they enter the water column and get used by algae. so, the proximity of the growing aerobics and anaerobics makes this system more efficient. can you see what i mean?

Im also noticing quite a few long (1/4" to an inch) white strands emerging from the LR. Are these feather duster worms? Anything to be worried about? I'm hoping Im identifying these correctly. They are about a mil thick at 1/4" in length and thin out to hair width as they stretch to an inch or so. when they stretch they have perpendiclular little arms (look like a really tiny skinny pipe cleaner). Anyway, thanks again for all the great info.

You guys are awesome.

sounds like spaghetti worms, good to have, eatup stuff their population is nutrient dependant.
no problem on the info, i am just putting a little back into a hobby i get so much out of please dont get caught up in the details of each cycle just yet. stay focussed on setting up then learn play/adjust later when your system is a bit more forgiving. just knowing the basics of each cycle is more than enough, you dont have to go into all the details of each. unless you just like to know, it does help here is a ecosystem overview of much of the stuff that going on Ecosystems

if you do a search on each system, there are some good charts like these;

one on the nitrgen cycle, note; where NO3 can go either to plants or bacteria



one on the carbon cycle, note; where photosynthesis takes up CO2 it also takes up NO3-how the NO3 can go to plants seen in the above chart, via photosynthesis (aka assimilation).

[prow]

o one other thing djbacon, in a 14gal tank all these thing a really magnified. so no light would be my suggestion. in a 100gal some lighting will not have as big of an impact on how things progress, at least compared to a 14gal system.

[djbacon]

Thanks again - I can see I'll be following this thread closely. You are a wealth of great info.

Skimmer is in the mail - it will replace the bio balls a.s.a.p. lights are off for the next month while I deal with my little hydroid issue.

Been reading about it all day and Im pretty certain that I dont want these in my tank given that they DO sting and I can find page after page of horror stories where peoples tanks become "infested" with these things as they multply quickly. There are already about 10 of these things popping out of their holes and the LR has only been there for 2 days. Taking a slice of rock back to he LFS tonight to confirm the ID and if they agree on the ID offered to replace all the rock from a different cure tank. This type of hydroid is allegedly difficult to deal with/remove.

Cheers and thanks again

[prow]

Originally Posted by djbacon

Taking a slice of rock back to he LFS tonight to confirm the ID and if they agree on the ID offered to replace all the rock from a different cure tank. This type of hydroid is allegedly difficult to deal with/remove.

Cheers and thanks again

that sounds like a good plan. i too dont like any ify things. as you know for me base rock with one good, well inspected peice of LR

[djbacon]

Prow, just wanted to thank you again for all your continueed advice. I've read and re-read your newbies cycling page and just wanted to be clear on this.

Im about 3 weeks into a 14gallon tank. (all live sand, live cured rock and water from an established tank at the LFS) Ammonia and nitrites are down and Im changing out water to reduce levels of NO3 to begin adding a clean up crew.

Stage 1 of the cycle is in good shape and now I want to focus on growing anerobic bacteria. My questions are as follows.

1. Should I still keep the lighting down to a minimumum to prevent excessinve alage growth?
Don't the snails, shrimp etc need the algae to feed?

2. Should I add occasional flake food or something to provide a steady food source?

I want to be very cautious and not rush the addition of too many critters in here, and ensure a good population of anerobic bacteria.

Thanks again

[prow]

Originally Posted by djbacon

Prow, just wanted to thank you again for all your continueed advice. I've read and re-read your newbies cycling page and just wanted to be clear on this.

your very welcome and thanks for sharing your adventure.

Im about 3 weeks into a 14gallon tank. (all live sand, live cured rock and water from an established tank at the LFS) Ammonia and nitrites are down and Im changing out water to reduce levels of NO3 to begin adding a clean up crew.

3-4wks is about right on starting to add CUC.

Stage 1 of the cycle is in good shape and now I want to focus on growing anerobic bacteria.

perfect

My questions are as follows.
1. Should I still keep the lighting down to a minimumum to prevent excessinve alage growth?

yes. the only things that wants/uses light (photosynthesis) right now is algae and unwanted bacteria. after you start to add fish is when you want to, slowly, cycle in your lighting.

Don't the snails, shrimp etc need the algae to feed?

yeah they do, not so much the shrimp. no worries though, the algae is there even if you can not see it. if you see it now, then its overgrowing and out competing your anaerobics. a blooming is normal but you dont want to let it remain all over the rock, CUC time and lighting up the refugium. you will be seeing some for sure but untill your anaerobics establish adding light to the main display will just give algae all the energy it needs to take over. the algae growing on the rock and sand is starving/preventing the anaerobics growing under it.(its not that black and white, fyi) snails and no light helps big time. if your worried about feeding your snails, leave lights off and put some algae flake foods or dried nori seaweed in there. you can get nori in the asian sec at whatever grocery store. but i would not do this in a nano. nutrients will build up quick in a 14gal, in effect it would be like adding a fish, to early in that size tank.

2. Should I add occasional flake food or something to provide a steady food source?

na, not after adding some CUC members. in a larger 100gal system with 150lbs of rock, with all that surface area for bac growth, you may want to add extra foods. but not in your 14gal, the CUC will be enough. nano's are a little different this way. i am glad you brought this up, i should have included a size range and warned of differences, esp. with nanos. thanks for brining this up in a nano a NO3 level of 20 happens quick, but in a 100gal that same amount of NO3 might not even be detectable. one or two shrimp is enough for a nano but in a 100gal its just a start, its not an exact scale down. while posting this i had in mind a average tank of 90ish gallons. no idea if that is the average size reef.

I want to be very cautious and not rush the addition of too many critters in here, and ensure a good population of anerobic bacteria.

that is how you should be feeling, i still feel like that everytime. but having a idea on what to focus on and what to do/prevent instead of waiting and putting out fires(dealing with issues) when they pop up forever, its so nice later on, your tank will keep itself in check.

ok timing wise, and these are estimates, goes something like this, leaving out water changes and stuff but would be doing them;
no lighting, growing aerobics for 3-4wks with shrimp and/or adding organic foods to break down. after stage one in 3-4 wks i then add some cleaners also light up the refugium to encourge what algae will grow to grow in the sump/refugium and add macros to complete with micro algaes plus skim-then one week after the first cleaners were added i add about double the amout of CUC i did the first time-then add more in another week. now its about 4-5wks into it and i start to get my Ca/alk/Mg all good and make any final rock scaping adjustments then add some carbon. it takes about a week or two to get the chemistry settled. i may add some other CUC if needed. now its 6-8wks in and i add my first small fish and start to slowly cycle my lighting in like starting with one hour a day and increasing it 30min every two days. a dig timer is great for this, $15. watching for a NH3 spike, dont usually get one BTW, but am ready to do water changes if it happens. then your off and running-while keeping good husbandry you will have a nice solid little reef going

[djbacon]

May you live to be a thousand years old.

[JWarren]

I just came across this thread. You guys are awesome for taking the time to put this all together. Great stuff! Thanks! This info would go great over at the ReefPedia site!

[kathywithbirds]

wow this is awesome prow. I have to bothpat myself on the back and cringe at the stuff I've done. Most test kits I come across don't differentiate between NO1, 2, 3... etc. and I wouldn't have known what pertained to what anyway. I did "get" some things early on from reading stuff that you clarified here, that I wouldn't have been able to say, well, this is why... like using base rock and putting in just some GOOD LR (other than NO HH!!) But I would not have really ever gotten the aerobic/anaerobic stuff.

I cannot read all this now as it's 2 a.m. and the brain is pretty much mush. And dear god, you put in flow charts. This is an after coffee read.

Thanks for spending so much time on this!!

[djbacon]

I come back to this thread over and over....Seriously, what a tremendous help in getting started :-)

Timing question for you- I'm a little over 6 weeks in now and rather than starting with fish I am starting with coral..Got my first hammer coral a week ago - It is flourishing. I have an order of Zoas (about 25 polyps) on the way for introduction in about another week.

Are 2 week increments sufficient between adding species/bioload in the form of corals? Trying to take this slowly, admittedly the urge to start filling the tank is upon me :-)

I don't plan on putting a fish in there for at least another month or two and even then only one for starters.

My levels appear to be excellent - lighting is cycled in and algae is still minimal. I credit your advice for all this. The CUC has been in for almost 3 weeks and is doing well except for the first couple trochus snails which I appeared to have not acclimated well enough. Died about 2 weeks after introduction to the tank with similar levels as below. Doing weekly 3 g changes in a 14g system.

Temp 79
PH 8-8.1 and steady
Calcium - mid 400's
Alk - 9.5dkh
SG 1.024
Phos - 0
Nitrate - < .12
NH3/4 - 0